Construction costs are currently skyrocketing

2022-10-05 12:42:49

What speaks against converting excess electricity and storing it in the form of hydrogen?

Basically nothing except the not-so-great efficiency and that it is not market-ready on the necessary scale. The government talks about building capacities for 5 gigawatts of electrolysis power by 2030. For comparison, at some point this summer, a peak of 40 gigawatts of photovoltaic electricity was fed in. And then there is the economic question of whether it is worthwhile to run an electrolysis plant as a gap filler.

2022-10-05 13:09:46

A hydrogen industry that could, for example, supply BASF in Ludwigshafen in large quantities would cost something around 500 to 800 billion. The solar radiation and the necessary area to develop such infrastructure would be available in northern Africa. Then the hydrogen would have to be carbonized. The methane or ethane produced in this way can then also be transported in pipelines, which is technically and economically not easily possible with hydrogen.

Problem one with this story: transferring 800 billion to Libya or Morocco and creating dependencies; the next Gaddafi would quickly have his hand back on the valve.

Problem two: about 0.2 kWh of gaseous energy is produced from one kWh of photovoltaic electricity. Here at home, it is converted back into electricity with a gas power plant with about 60% efficiency.

Hydrogen has been hyped for 15 years but will never establish itself as a significant energy supply...

2022-10-05 14:01:02

In summer I fully agree with you. Unfortunately, it will look completely different in winter. Only when you take stock in March can you make a statement about the benefit. In winter, after work, there is no more sun where you could still charge your car, and you will have to buy electricity expensively from the grid...

It will probably still be cheaper than fueling. Combustion engines are just insanely inefficient.

A hydrogen industry that could, for example, supply BASF in Ludwigshafen in large quantities would cost something around 500 to 800 billion. The solar radiation and the necessary area for this would be available in northern Africa to develop such an infrastructure there. Then the hydrogen would have to be carbonized. The methane or ethane produced that way can then also be transported in pipelines, which is not technically and economically easily possible with hydrogen.

Would BASF then use hydrogen where gas is needed in production? Is that a combustion process? Because as far as I understood, for heat and power they somehow only use half of the gas.

2022-10-05 14:03:31

Regarding the costs, I would now assume that they will decrease as soon as appropriate systems are built everywhere. Due to economies of scale, you cannot simply extrapolate the costs of pilot plants. The bigger problem I see is in the energy source. The sun only shines on average half a day, so where does the energy for electrolysis come from at night? In addition, there are all the weather-related fluctuations. Here, corresponding excess capacities are needed again to ultimately produce the actual demand.

2022-10-05 14:19:03

A hydrogen industry that could supply BASF in Ludwigshafen quantitatively, for example, would cost something around 500 to 800 billion. The solar radiation and the necessary area would be available in North Africa to develop such an infrastructure there. Then the hydrogen would have to be carbonized. The methane or ethane produced in this way can then also be transported in pipelines, which is not technically and economically easily possible with hydrogen.

Problem one with this story: transferring 800 billion to Libya or Morocco and creating dependencies, the next Gaddafi would quickly have his hand back on the valve.

Problem two: from one kWh of photovoltaic electricity, about 0.2 kWh of gaseous energy is produced. Here in this country, it is converted back into electricity with a gas power plant with about 60% efficiency.

Hydrogen has been hyped for 15 years, but it will never be able to establish itself as a significant energy supply...

So I interpret your statement as saying that it is technically possible. However, currently not economically viable.

We have enough space for photovoltaics in Germany; I don't even have to look to North Africa for that. Since so far only about 11% of all roofs here have a photovoltaic system installed, conversely 89% are still without and could still be used. That is, for me, a solid figure. If I now also think of tricks like possible carport roofings, vertical modules along the highways, etc., then we really have more than enough space here to become energy self-sufficient.

And then there would be no problem with transport or pipelines either. Build small power plants locally that convert and store surpluses. Put a combined heat and power plant next to it, and off you go.

2022-10-05 14:33:17

Of course, profitability is the problem. If it were clearly economical, we wouldn't be discussing it anymore, someone would have implemented it long ago. Rooftop photovoltaics have the problem of orientation and fragmentation compared to ground-mounted photovoltaics. The first reduces yield, the second increases costs. Photovoltaics on noise barriers as well, they already exist and are also being discussed here. Of course, as a country, we sometimes stand in our own way when monument protection does not approve photovoltaics. And precisely the problem that in Central Europe we have weaker solar radiation and, above all, it is significantly more uneven between summer and winter.

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Construction costs are currently skyrocketing

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