Lumpi_LE
2019-12-07 19:46:45
- #1
4000 is more like the 10-year goal, although it still depends on whether it is a modulating pump or not.
Underfloor heating air-water heat pump. House too warm when the sun shines
- Erstellt am 2019-12-04 14:18:21
chewbacca123
2019-12-07 20:59:04
- #2
UPS, ok, well great. What causes that? Why this frequency?4000 is more like the 10-year target, depending on whether it is a modulating pump or not.
Daniel-Sp
2019-12-07 23:38:45
- #3
The Energy Saving Ordinance requires ERR for heated rooms. Since heat pump manufacturers assume they are also used (and thus several heating circuits are closed), but the heat pump needs a minimum volume flow, measures such as bypass valves and buffer tanks are required in the installation diagrams. The heating engineer follows these hydraulics diagrams approved by the manufacturer in order to always be able to say in case of problems that it was built as required by the manufacturer. What happens: Due to the ERR, heating circuits are closed, the minimum volume flow is undershot, and the pressure rises, the bypass valve opens and warm flow directly flows into the buffer in the return flow. The buffer can only store minimal heat, so the return temperature rises within a short time. Your heat pump is return-controlled. After a short time, the target return temperature plus hysteresis is reached and the compressor switches off. In your case, on average after 14 minutes. The compressor stops, the heating water circulation pump continues to run as intended, the flow temperature falls and thus also the return temperature. Since the screed in the open circuits is still cold (cool), the measured return temperature falls below the lower hysteresis band after a short time and the compressor starts and the game with the short circuit via the bypass valve starts all over again. If your heat pump did not produce hot water, the average compressor run times would probably be even shorter. To ensure that heat still reaches the rooms in the short runtime, the heating curve is set far too high. But this only aggravates the problem. I assume that your heating engineer follows the installation instructions from the manufacturer and on Monday will not uninstall the ERR (or set it to Max) or completely close the bypass valve. You will have to deal with your heating system yourself. You do not have a bad heat pump, it is just operated incorrectly. We have been living in our house since August and have just "managed" 210 compressor starts. Also a Novelan heat pump... Best regards, Daniel
chewbacca123
2019-12-08 09:23:17
- #4
The Energy Saving Ordinance requires ERR for heated rooms. Since heat pump manufacturers assume that they are also used (and thus several heating circuits are closed), but the heat pump needs a minimum flow rate, measures such as bypass valves and buffer tanks are required in the installation diagrams. The heating engineer follows these hydraulics schemes approved by the manufacturer in order to always be able to say in case of problems that it was built as required by the manufacturer.
What happens: Due to the ERR, heating circuits are closed, the minimum flow rate is undershot and the pressure rises, the bypass valve opens and warm flow flows directly into the buffer in the return line. The buffer can only store a minimal amount of heat, so the return temperature rises within a short time. Your heat pump is return controlled. After a short time, the setpoint return temperature plus hysteresis is reached and the compressor switches off. In your case on average after 14 minutes. The compressor stops, the heating water circulation pump continues to run as intended, the flow temperature drops and so does the return temperature. Because the screed in the open circuits is still cold (cool), the measured return temperature falls below the lower hysteresis band after a short time and the compressor starts and the game with the short circuit via the bypass valve starts all over again. If your heat pump did not produce hot water, the average compressor running times would probably be even shorter. To get heat into the rooms in the short running times, the heating curve is set much too high. But that only worsens the problem.
I assume that your heating engineer adheres to the installation instructions from the manufacturer and does not uninstall the ERR on Monday (or set it to max) and fully close the bypass valve. You will have to deal with your heating system yourself.
You don’t have a bad heat pump, it is just operated incorrectly.
We have lived in our house since August and have just "managed" 210 compressor starts. Also a Novelan heat pump...
Regards, Daniel
First of all, many thanks for your detailed answer, that explains it a bit better to me. Unfortunately, I am an absolute layman. I have now made certain settings as you suggested. However, I could not change the hysteresis domestic hot water to 6, I have no option, it remains at 2. Heating curve is now 28-22-0 and domestic hot water 48 degrees.
Flow and return, see attached picture, now look much better. Not the same anymore.
I made the settings yesterday afternoon, but this morning it is quite chilly in some rooms - for example in the living room only 20.5°C, whereas the thermostat is set to 22-23°C. And in the bathroom we also want it cozy, there is normally always 23°-24°, but there we only have 20.5°C. We have a small baby at home, so it is quite cold now especially in the bathroom and it should be warmer there.
How can this now be explained? I have attached pictures.
Our installer is coming by tomorrow afternoon, I will confront him with the whole matter. But don’t many people have this problem with such a heating system? It is quite complicated, and I can only deal with it so intensively at the moment because I am on parental leave at home.
Or is it simply the case with us that our installer has not made any proper settings at all?
Daniel-Sp
2019-12-08 09:54:07
- #5
Hi,
The password to change the WW hysteresis is 9445. If it is too cold, raise the heating curve to 30/22/0.
Since you write that the ERR is set at 22-23 degrees, I assume not all ERRs are set to maximum. What total flow do your flow meters on the heating circuit distributor show? And the all-important question is: Is the bypass valve completely closed? I suspect not.
You should use today to read the operating manual of the heat pump controller, including the one for the specialist (you can find it on the homepage). Tomorrow have the bypass valve shown to you, as well as explained how to operate the Topmeters in the heating circuit distributor (fully open, ask about additional flow restrictors in the supply and return).
Which model was installed?
Yes, the control is complicated. And most people only notice the problems after a few years when the heat pump is broken. The technician acts according to the manufacturer's specifications.
You have to take care of it yourself.
If the heat pump no longer cycles and the heating curve roughly matches, the hydraulic balancing comes next, but not via the ERR but via the Topmeters. If everything is correct, you won’t have to touch the heating anymore.
Also important are the lengths of the individual heating circuits!
Best regards, Daniel
The password to change the WW hysteresis is 9445. If it is too cold, raise the heating curve to 30/22/0.
Since you write that the ERR is set at 22-23 degrees, I assume not all ERRs are set to maximum. What total flow do your flow meters on the heating circuit distributor show? And the all-important question is: Is the bypass valve completely closed? I suspect not.
You should use today to read the operating manual of the heat pump controller, including the one for the specialist (you can find it on the homepage). Tomorrow have the bypass valve shown to you, as well as explained how to operate the Topmeters in the heating circuit distributor (fully open, ask about additional flow restrictors in the supply and return).
Which model was installed?
Yes, the control is complicated. And most people only notice the problems after a few years when the heat pump is broken. The technician acts according to the manufacturer's specifications.
You have to take care of it yourself.
If the heat pump no longer cycles and the heating curve roughly matches, the hydraulic balancing comes next, but not via the ERR but via the Topmeters. If everything is correct, you won’t have to touch the heating anymore.
Also important are the lengths of the individual heating circuits!
Best regards, Daniel
chewbacca123
2019-12-08 10:18:56
- #6
Hi,
The password to change the WW hysteresis is 9445. If it is too cold, raise the heating curve to 30/22/0.
Since you write that the ERR is set to 22-23 degrees, I assume that not all ERR are set to maximum. What total flow do your flow meters on the heating circuit distributor show? And the all-important question is: Is the bypass valve completely closed? I suspect not.
You should use today to read the operating manual of the heat pump controller, also the one for the professional technician (you can find it on the homepage). Tomorrow, have the bypass valve shown to you, as well as an explanation of how to operate the top meters in the heating circuit distributor (completely open, ask about additional flow restrictors in the supply and return).
Which model was installed?
Yes, the control system is complicated. And most only notice the problems after a few years when the heat pump breaks down. The technician acts according to the manufacturer's instructions.
You have to take care of it yourself.
If the heat pump no longer cycles and the heating curve roughly matches, then the hydraulic balancing comes, but not via the ERRs but via the top meters. If everything is correct, you will no longer have to touch the heating.
Important are also the lengths of the individual heating circuits!
Regards, Daniel
Stupid question - if I set all the ERRs to full power, won't it get pretty hot everywhere? Especially in the bedroom, where we prefer to have no heating on at all.
The bypass valve is not closed, because I don’t even know where it is. I will definitely have it shown to me tomorrow since I don’t know where it is. I will definitely have it shown to me tomorrow.