Heat pump in the transition period

  • Erstellt am 2023-10-12 14:42:10

KarstenausNRW

2023-10-16 15:57:56
  • #1

Like any other heat pump: not at all
You can only reduce cycling with a perfectly designed heating system, possibly with a slightly undersized heat pump. Cycling is simply normal during the transitional period.
I only set the flow and return temperatures along with the delta T = flow/return spread. Also the pump on auto. No heating integrals, rest mode settings, or any other voodoo settings.

There’s actually almost nothing left to adjust on a Pana. Only a whisper mode = lower power for reduced outdoor noise and a timer.

Keep it simple – that works well. And when I see that a heat pump is nowadays designed for a minimum of 50,000-80,000 real cycles (switching from heating to hot water is always two cycles, even if the compressor doesn’t start completely cold), 10-15 cycles during the transitional period are simply normal, I see no practical reason to create a thousand setting options with lofty names.
50,000 cycles correspond to about 20 years of service life with a reasonably planned heating system (including hot water cycles).
 

RotorMotor

2023-10-16 19:42:45
  • #2

I would have phrased it exactly the other way around.
Every heat pump has to regulate somehow.


How is that supposed to work?
There must be at least a heating curve.
And internally there must also be the possibility to overshoot the temperatures within a certain range.

Do you have information or logs about this, or is it rather a black box for you that simply works?
 

KarstenausNRW

2023-10-16 20:01:22
  • #3
By heating curve I meant with flow / return / spread: That’s how you set the heating curve. I’m not attaching the photo showing the spread = return temperature. There really are no further inputs or information. How should temperatures "oscillate"? Sure, the maximum power of the pump. You can also set it to constant or automatic. But actually there are no gimmicks. Neither internally nor externally. Why should there be? With Pana you also don’t need expensive accessories for the cooling function. You just switch it on. Such nonsense to sell accessories for that. I don’t count dew point sensors as heat pump accessories. You can (sensibly) use them or just run the heat pump by feel and experience from the internet. That’s why I never understand all the heat pump setting threads here in the forum. What the German manufacturers have come up with is dreadful to me. Foreign (Asian) devices are much simpler. But there nobody wants oscillating temperatures, heating integrals, rest mode, switching locks, etc. Turn on the heating, set it, and let it run.
 

RotorMotor

2023-10-16 20:26:26
  • #4
Too bad, I had hoped that you might know how they internally limit the cycling.


ah, you set the heating curve and not the supply temperature.


Quite simple, the heating curve results in a supply temperature setpoint.
For you, for example, 25 degrees at 15 degrees outside.
That means the heat pump initially tries to reach 25 degrees supply.
If the heat pump took no measures to avoid cycling, the following would happen.
The heat pump turns on, the supply temperature rises, goes above 25 after a short time, the heat pump switches off, supply falls to 24.9.
Heat pump switches on again, supply rises to 25.1, heat pump switches off, ... and this could happen within a few seconds/minutes.

So something has to be done:
Lockout for a certain duration.
Build up and break down an energy integral.
Allow a hysteresis, etc.

All these measures reduce the (high-frequency) turning on and off of the compressor.
However, this cycling reduction always results in temperature oscillations to a certain extent.
With a large amount of screed, this only occurs after several hours.

I would have been interested here to know which measure the Geishas have integrated.


I’m totally with you on that.
With the Arotherms, for example, I see the biggest problem that most people get "afraid" of damage from cycling because of the internet.
And also Vaillant implemented the energy integral too short. With the new circuit boards they have now doubled it.
 

KarstenausNRW

2023-10-16 21:28:05
  • #5

And this short cycling they actually do not make. On the one hand, I do not know whether (this was or is the case, for example, with Waterkotte, which I do know for sure) average values from the last 6 / 12 / 24 hours are also taken into account.
On the other hand, it also does not short cycle because the return temperature is correspondingly high. Since the spread of the heat pump (the model from the photo runs with 5 degrees) requires a return temperature of 20 degrees. And that does not work at the current temperatures during the day (currently not yet at night or only very early in the morning either).

"No one" does anything at the Pana. If anything happens, it is exclusively through the device. All the points mentioned do not exist (there also were none with my last Waterkotte brine/heat pump), at least no input by the user (and of course also none in the installer menu).
And it works excellently. Since it is still always too warm in the house, my two Panas (I have one for each apartment) are not running yet. Otherwise, I would have checked how the cycles look.

And once again for the OP: Just let it run. Whether there are 12 or 11 cycles. Or 14 cycles. It is so irrelevant. It absolutely does not harm the device. I have already seen enough old heat pumps which are approaching 70-100,000 cycles (and have been in service for over 20 years, just like every normal refrigerator).

Or switch from a supply/return control to an indoor temperature controlled regulation. Hopefully, there is also an alternative like that.
 

RotorMotor

2023-10-16 21:52:29
  • #6
I have now done some research myself. Panasonic seems to use a hysteresis (i.e., between desired flow temperature and actual flow temperature) to "control" the cycling. The value can apparently be configured with "HeishaMon". have you ever checked how the behavior changes when you change the hysteresis?
 

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