Vestaxx window heating - experiences?

The managing director almost always manages to make me give up, but because of the comrades-in-arms, I’m trying again.
I still really hope that the engineer simply lacks business management knowledge and that it is not a matter of malice.

I’m laughing myself to death – he has no more arguments, and whoever calculates the payback period of a photovoltaic system as 100 years – like you did in one of your last posts – should first educate themselves and not calculate such nonsense.

Wrong. I’m not calculating any photovoltaic systems here because this is about heating systems.
They appear at most in heating comparisons to correct the electricity price.

So far it is NOT clear to ME why you can simply deduct €5,000 for a BWWP and €10,000 for window heating from a €40,000 investment for an air-water heat pump and then continue calculating with €25,000.

Both heating systems have acquisition costs. One about €40k and the other about €15k.
That means if I want the difference, I form the difference.
With this difference, I can calculate how the investment advantage has been balanced out with different running costs.

You once got involved with the heat pump system and trusted your heating installer. He now has your money and is happy. You try to make the calculation look good here – but you fail miserably.

A pure false claim. I have planned and calculated my system technology very precisely.
And so far, I have been able to convince everyone except you.

What is wrong with my calculation??? I know -> that IT doesn’t suit YOU! What is to be strictly considered SEPARATELY? You can by all means consider everything strictly separately, just unfortunate that in the end the same sum always remains.

It is generally agreed that the only thing in a house that can generate income (apart from renting) is a photovoltaic system.
You probably figured that out as well and are now using it in your sleight of hand to make your product look good in the calculation.
It is precisely a sleight of hand because you can (as I have demonstrated extensively) and must calculate the investment in a photovoltaic system and the investment in a heating system completely independently to be factual.
We have also refuted the argument of limited budget several times now. For that, there are banks, subsidized loans, etc.

I thought it might be possible to argue factually with you on the basis of clear numbers. Now you accuse me of sleight of hand – so fraud! That’s an impudence! And it does not do good to this forum.

Then maybe just address my calculation?
Without photovoltaic, without electric car, without household electricity, just heating systems (warm house, warm water).

People here want to inquire and ask about experiences. You only have experience with heat pumps and don’t have the slightest clue about window heating. It only reassures me that probably people like you also mocked the heat pump as voodoo in the past – but it has nevertheless established itself. Only eventually every system is too old for the ever-developing market.

Now I’m just thinking of the saying “Those who have no clue should simply ...”

Unfortunately, you also don’t post any experience on window heating here, but only say that you can buy a photovoltaic system.
There doesn’t seem to be much positive about it?
Mixed with a few insults and claims about my knowledge of heat pumps.

We – as such an unserious company – have dozens of customers who confirm the above-mentioned calculation of mine with consumption figures. But apparently they are all crazy too, or better yet – are paid by us.
Scientists and energy consultants also confirm the above calculation – only ROTORMOTOR is much smarter than all the others.

Where are the reports from the customers, the scientists, and the energy consultants?

Before you say here that we’re an unserious company, you should lead by example with seriousness.
I never wrote that the direct electric heating is energetically more efficient than a heat pump and therefore don’t have to sugarcoat anything.

I’m going to watch this for a while longer and will only respond to serious, well-intentioned contributions and questions.

I have calculated very seriously; unfortunately, this was not addressed.

If you refer to expert calculations here (VDI 2067), this is dismissed as nonsense. So you are even smarter than the experts of the VDI. I would not claim that for myself.

Show me a calculation according to VDI 2067.
So far you haven’t posted one here and I can’t find any on your website either.

Children… if you include the additional costs of the heat pump with interest in the cost calculation, it doesn’t matter at all whether with or without [Photovoltaik].

A lot of text for a simple matter

Correct, but then the calculation for the manufacturer simply no longer fits, because the consumption costs are significantly higher than the interest savings...

The managing director almost always manages to make me give up, but because of the fellow fighters I’m going to try again. I still really hope that the engineer simply lacks business management knowledge and that it’s not malice.

I thought that at first too, but it's just marketing nonsense. You can tell from the passive-aggressive attitude that is occasionally broken by open hostility, which is then attempted to be disguised with consultant jargon as soon as he meets someone who doesn’t share his opinion. Numbers examples are mostly dismissed (also passive-aggressively - "congratulations on your system! REALLY FROM THE HEART!!1elf") and then counter-calculated with the eternal photovoltaics-make-our-system-economical nonsense. And anyone who denies or questions this critically, in the sense of “what would the total cost calculation look like if we completely left out PVs,” is brushed off with “finally watch our promotional video,” uh no, I mean “webinar.” Every discussion is futile, it’s a coffee trip.

I would at most still react to his posts with emojis here, but the emoji with the rolling eyes is missing.

First of all, thanks for the factual contribution.

What you mean are the glued-on heating wires of the rear windows, which tend to break more from cleaning than from stretching. But whatever. Our heating layer is baked fully into the glass. The layer cannot detach from the glass. It is comparable to the layers on, for example, cell phones or flat screens.

The damages to underfloor heating are certainly also quite rare, but if they do occur, they get really expensive.

However, I did not see any numbers? Or are there no long-term studies that provide reliable figures?
Saying that the distributed technology is better than or comparable to does not help anyone here. So: I explicitly ask again for numbers. How often does such a window heating break, and what faults then occur that have to be fixed with which effort?

P.S. I am not an opponent of new technologies, on the contrary. I work in IT, that would not be possible otherwise. But old bread in new bags is not a new technology. Here is another example: As a civilian service worker, I lived on a farm. The living room and kitchen had an electric ceiling heating. I am 55 years old; you can guess how long ago that was—I honestly don’t remember exactly anymore ;-)

Dear Managing Director,

I already asked you a few days ago to post your numbers and calculations – as is proper for a decent business case – in table form, for example as a screenshot from a spreadsheet program.

The fact that this has repeatedly not happened can, according to my assumption, have only 3 reasons.
1. You do not master such software and cannot draw on any internal company experience either.
2. You have ignored me in this forum and cannot read my posts for this reason.
3. It is strategically more sensible for you to argue with wonderful, finely-tuned rhetoric, such as the following gem. It provides a lot of text, but does not immediately reveal the connections, and the uninformed interested party may be misled by striking advertising statements.

Then I have questions about this:
Even I have had a significant energy surplus with my unfavorable photovoltaic system without my BEV since installation. Calculation without the car is
Produced: 8.6 MWh
Consumed: 7.1 MWh
and all this in the first year after moving in with a considerable amount of construction moisture.

I am slowly beginning to find this cheeky.

I consider it positive that the realization is now also maturing with the heater manufacturer. I have detailed this in this post

https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/vestaxx-fensterheizung-erfahrungen.41824/post-599311

Here again with the financing variants.

https://www.hausbau-forum.de/threads/vestaxx-fensterheizung-erfahrungen.41824/post-599382

You can see that it amounts to the same. Each including photovoltaic. Only with the certainty of switching to more efficient water-based heating technology in the future.

My entire post is serious and factual, but it is completely ignored by the provider. As well as the fact that for the foreseeable future the product is significantly worse with regard to climate change than a heat pump. Approximately 16-20 tons more CO2 are generated than through the COP of the heat pump. For this reason alone I could not buy or recommend the system in good conscience.

And to clarify again: It is GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX GRID MIX..... I have no idea how many times I want to repeat this mistake.

Well then – I’ll get started again and respond here quite factually.
First of all:
You know everything about me – nobody knows who OWL is. I am open – you are anonymous. Just for your assessment. I live in OWL – we can gladly meet for a beer sometime, but then you have to come out of anonymity.

Business Case -> I don’t know what our business case has to do here in this forum.

Regarding 1.: That is presumptuous and more than wrong. I am extremely proficient in our software (I partly developed it myself) and as Managing Director have access to all experience. Soon we will publish software on our homepage that is being developed together with a Berlin university (HTW). Independent expertise is important for our business. There are many people who accuse us of sleight of hand tricks etc.

Regarding 2.: I have not ignored you (I did respond), but I don’t have to comply with every single request immediately. Neither do you, by the way.

Regarding 3.: You cannot make an investment - operating cost calculation any clearer than in my calculation (Excel or not).

I sincerely congratulate you on your photovoltaic surplus, I just don’t know what that has to do with the matter.
Just tell me what is wrong with the above calculation of mine.

"... each including photovoltaic" -> please only compare comparable systems – I compared a house with a fixed heating demand, hot water and household electricity demand with two heating systems, both of which cost €40,000. That can be compared and that’s what it’s about.

Your comment on climate change and CO2 generation is great!!! But I have already written about this several times, which OWL ignores. Can you tell me how much the heat pump with pumps, compressors, valves, housings and especially kilometers of heating coils in the floor has already generated before even the first kWh was produced? That is... I don’t know, but soon we will have a master’s thesis on this – because heat pump manufacturers give no statement about it.
We are in the kg range for the complete heating technology. I would like to see in more detail how you come to the 16-20 tons more than accounted for by the COP.

So – I hope I have answered every point sufficiently and I really mean it when I say I am open to a discussion with you. I am a very nice guy and not at all looking for stress. In the conversation we can also take a look at my software and consider everything: investment, operating costs, CO2 footprint, grid mix – I would be happy to show you a sample.
Everything is possible – I have nothing to hide.

Finally this: a few years ago I also talked to Max Viessmann – at his request – about our system in Berlin. I had the feeling that HE understood me very well. ;) Not long after, Viessmann included infrared heating systems in their program. Why only?