Single-family house (2 floors + residential basement + developed attic) approximately 200 sqm - changes

There I read: with Drempelbauweise the roof rests on the floor and with Kniestock on the wall.

If you want to use your own definitions, go ahead. I prefer to use those common in the industry. That avoids misunderstandings. I won’t explain it again and the sketches from your (not permitted) link are also clear.

I don’t know why this from the first post (I suspect that the comment by kaho674 set the tone) turned into a financial discussion.

That’s because price and floor plan are closely linked, especially if it’s foreseeable that they will be castles in the air.

That makes about 1.7k per sqm with assumed costs of 330k, with about 1/3 of that being the cheaper basement. .... so it’s not that divergent I think.

*laugh* I do think so. Since the price/sqm is usually between 2000 and 2200, that is quite a considerable deviation.
Unfortunately, the offers in the end are never the money you actually pay. If you believe you are the big exception, okay. We don’t want to discourage you, but to support you so that it doesn’t go wrong.

Now to the offer we received yesterday.

[*]It concerns the house in the 2nd post plus basement and ground floor from the first post. Minimal changes (outdoor door opening outwards) have already been incorporated which are not included in the offer but are probably almost cost-neutral (partly even cheaper – e.g. only one sliding glass door in the ground floor in the middle and 2 fixed glass panes on the left and right instead of 2 glass doors).
[*]So we are talking about the house with a 150 cm knee wall and about 165 sqm living space above 2m in the basement, ground floor, upper floor + about 24 sqm above 2m and 14 sqm/2=7 sqm 1-2m in the attic. So about 195 sqm living space.
[*]We specified that the basement is to be built with 2.50m and the ground floor with 2.75m ceiling height. The offer states basement 2.25 and ground floor 2.50 – I will clarify this on Monday.

included in the offer:

[*]The offer includes a wooden staircase (we have reconsidered this)
[*]20k for earthworks
[*]Concrete platform for house entrance and basement access
[*]Triple glazing; profiles 82mm; 6/7 chamber windows
[*]2 sliding doors in the living area (one will be removed)
[*]Front door 2k, side door 1.1k including installation
[*]Window sills inside Werzalit or Agglo Marble; outside aluminum and floor-to-ceiling on the ground floor granite Rosa Beta or Zerizzo
[*]Interior doors made of hollow core doors with CPL coating
[*]Underfloor heating with individual room control on upper floor and ground floor (it was also agreed for basement – I will clarify Monday if this is only missing in the description)
[*]Preparation for heating in the attic
[*]Heat pump Dimplex SIK 11TES with 200m probe
[*]External 400l hot water storage tank by Dimplex
[*]Exterior cement lightweight plaster with fabric smoothing, mineral exterior plaster with leveling coat in white or pastel
[*]Sanitary rough installations in 2 bathrooms and 1 WC + frost-proof outdoor faucet and 1 outdoor sink in the utility room
[*]Sanitary ceramics 14k
[*]Electrical work 19k

for about 335k including VAT

not included:

[*]Soil report (already available)
[*]Connections (we plan with 20k)
[*]There are no interior plastering works included in the offer – because no clay plasterer could be found – so we expect about 20-25k for lime plaster and 30-35k for clay plaster if we find a craftsman
[*]Soil removal (we plan with 5-xxk)
[*]Surveyor (we plan with 2.5k)
[*]Lifting system for wastewater/stormwater (we plan with 10k)
[*]All floor coverings and paints for the interior (we plan with 15k)
[*]Outdoor area + driveway (we plan with 15k)
[*]Roof insulation (currently basically a cold roof and we will insulate it ourselves (we plan with 5k)
[*]Chimney
[*]Roller shutters
[*]Multiple utility connections (we plan with 1k)
[*]Heating in the attic (either 2 radiators or underfloor heating as own work) (we plan with 5k)

so about:
98-113k extra (lime vs. clay plaster) + possible additional costs for removal (which seems very low to us)
= about 435-450k INCLUDING ancillary construction costs

The increase of the roof to knee wall construction was estimated at 4k. This seems low to us but it will still be calculated.

So with the increase, we would pay about 450k for 205-210 sqm including ancillary construction costs. That results in about 2.17k Eur/sqm.

Now I would appreciate feedback on poor calculation (although that would actually belong in the finance section and I would have posted it THERE NOW) and especially on the floor plan

If you want to use your own definitions, go ahead. I’d rather stick to the ones commonly used in the industry. That avoids misunderstandings. I’m not going to explain it again, and the sketches from your (not permitted) link are also clear.

That’s because price and floor plan are closely related when it’s foreseeable that these will be castles in the air.

*laugh* But I do think so. Since the price per sqm usually ranges from 2000 to 2200, that is quite a significant deviation. Unfortunately, the offers in the end are never the amount you actually pay. If you think you are the big exception, okay. We don’t want to discourage you, but rather support you so that it doesn’t go badly.

I still don’t understand your definition of Drempel and it contradicts the one on the (apparently forbidden) linked page. Knee wall = roof on wall whose height you specify; Drempel = roof on floor. If your problem is that with us the attic is described as an upper floor because we somehow find it clearer to call it an attic only when it has considerable roof slopes, then I apologize. Otherwise, I find my description understandable and not incorrect.

Yes, floor plan and price belong closely together. We first looked for a usable floor plan and then optimized it in every possible way so as not to lose any space to hallways. That might be unusual nowadays, but we don’t want to “lose” floor area inside the house and invest costs to have nice hallways. We want to keep as much land as possible and have plenty of living and utility space inside.

Yesterday I was able to convince myself what a hallway of 2*1m looks and feels like in front of a double-spiral staircase. For us, that is perfectly okay. Even 90 cm walking width didn’t feel bad at all. Large oak furniture comes into the ground floor at most. Upstairs and above — we have Ivar and self-build solutions.

But all of this deviates somewhat from the normal prices of 2.2k per sqm! You just also build the hallways and don’t use the roof and the comparatively inexpensive basement. And as mentioned, we ended up at 2.17k per sqm including incidental building costs. Others surely build for 2.2k excluding incidental building costs. That may be. They then forego “the pain” of living in basement and attic and only 2*1sqm hallways + 90 cm staircase walking width.

If we have misestimated costs in doing so, please let us know.

It is always important to speak about the same thing when it comes to room heights. Raw construction measurement or finished room height.

I don't find this important at all now, and besides, you probably mean the same thing. Only your terms are confusing.

Kniestock= Dach auf Mauer deren Höhe man angibt;

correct

Drempel = Dach auf Etage.

There is no such thing or no one says that. A roof is not on a floor. The roof rests (according to my knowledge) on the wall plate, whether with a knee wall or without. The Drempel, in my opinion, is always only there to box out sharp and unwalkable angles on the floor under the slope, since you can't do anything there anyway (hard to reach, you bump your head, can't clean properly, etc.). The flatter the roof, the more likely it will be boxed out if there is no knee wall.

If your problem is that with us the attic is described as the upper floor because we somehow find it easier to understand to call an attic only when it has significant roof slopes, then I apologize. Otherwise, I find my description understandable and not wrong

No. A full storey is a full storey, whether 1st, 5th or 10th floor. It is characterized by (which differs in each federal state) 2/3 of the area having a height over 2.30 m compared to the built house area. The attic is just the floor under the roof.

Yes, floor plan and price belong closely together. We first looked for a usable floor plan and then optimized it in every conceivable way so as not to lose any area to corridors. That may be unusual nowadays but we do not want to "lose" floor space inside the house and spend money on nice hallways. We want to keep a lot of land and have a lot of living and usable space inside.

Your fear of corridors is already neurotic. A good floor plan is not characterized by minimizing corridor area. What matters is that the usable areas are optimal for the purpose they are intended for. A staircase that opens into the chill room destroys the chill room because you can no longer chill there when it becomes a passage zone for everyone who wants (and has) to go up and down. Just as an example.

Yesterday I was able to convince myself what a corridor with 2*1m in front of a double-spiral staircase looks and feels like. For us, that is completely ok. Even 90 cm walking width didn't feel bad at all.

"Ok" and "not so bad" are not really the adjectives you use to describe your dream home, right?

As for the costs – there are experts who can give you better information. That only makes sense when you place it alongside the construction service description. So far, the general contractor has also planned the basement for you unfinished. If you think this is just a misunderstanding, you are mistaken. He knows exactly that it’s already not enough that way.

I don’t know why this has degenerated into a financial discussion from the first post (I suspect that the comment from kaho674 set the tone). If I had wanted to sort out the finances, I would have gone to the finance section. There are simply many different ways to describe things here.

It’s just annoying when later there are a dozen pages full of tips and then the penny drops that it’s not affordable. That’s why at least a brief mention of the topic is nice. Apparently, there is no need to watch every € and the listing is well calculated.

[*]We had specified that the basement is to be built at 2.50m and the ground floor at 2.75m. The offer states basement 2.25 and ground floor 2.50 – I will clarify on Monday.

Pay close attention to the exact wording. 2.50m is which measurement in the end? Top edge of finished floor – ceiling? 2.50 built up could mean that the ceiling plus floor build-up still have to be added and you’ll end up at 2m.

included in the offer:

[*]A wooden staircase (we changed our minds again there)
[*]Sanitary ceramics 14k
[*]Electrical work 19k

Listing of the price for the staircase? Probably standard beech... Not everyone’s taste. If the stair treads are to be brushed and possibly oiled, that will cost another 2-3k approximately.
Sanitary ceramics and electrical work seem to be standard and will also take a few more €.

not included:

[*]Soil survey (already available)
[*]Connections (we plan with 20k)
[*]Removal of earth (we plan with 5-xxk)
[*]All floor coverings and paints for indoors (we plan with 15k)
[*]Outdoor area + driveway (we plan with 15k)

Connections will be less. Removal is always a big question mark... Watch out that the earthworks contractor doesn’t charge dubious things later.
“Paints”? Is that supposed to mean the painter’s work? If yes, then 15k is way off. If a company is meant to do that, then it probably goes rather towards 20k + 10k floor.
Somehow the tiler is missing.
Outdoor area 15k is also very tight. In EL definitely feasible.

= about 435-450k INCLUDING incidental building costs

We would therefore pay about 450k for 205-210sqm including incidental building costs in case of an increase. That results in about 2.17k Eur/sqm.

Feasible, but tight. I would still have kept a nearly mid-five-digit reserve here.