How long have you been saving equity for your house?

You can also overdo it with forced independence. I see absolutely nothing wrong with supporting your own children. As a rule, you have usually experienced this support yourself beforehand. If you don't have the possibility, okay. But then you don't need to point fingers at other parents saying they are raising absolutely dependent children.

"Forced" is usually a less sensible approach, in any direction, and no one should/wanted to point fingers; that is definitely not how I meant it. I am simply sharing my quite diverse, also personal experiences with young people. That may sound somewhat harsh, but it is quite the opposite, because young people often have problems in life when the usual and comfortable support (not only financial) disappears. A young person who is always aware of a kind of "all-round security" in the background is, in my opinion, at least at risk of not thinking deeply enough about things that will inevitably confront them eventually. That I put it this way does not mean I want to set myself up as a prime example; rather the opposite; nevertheless, this is my experienced conviction. It is of course not "wrong," I just mean that in the long run, for a young person's life, "less can be more," and if we want to make life easier for young people, we may UNCONSCIOUSLY hinder or slow them down. I repeatedly deal with young people who hardly manage to maintain the standard of living or luxury they were used to in youth in their "new" independent life; perceived setbacks are usually very hard to bear.

The question is until when you support them. Until the end of school - in my opinion, definitely. A 15 or 16-year-old in vocational training - I also think still (although it would already be legitimate to require household money). A 27-year-old long-term student - I have my doubts that you are doing him any favors by supporting him.. Looking back I have to say for my own development that I was supported for too long (until 27 exactly). I only really got going when my father could no longer support me. At the time I of course thought it was annoying, but today I can say that I needed that push into the cold water in order to finally learn to swim. And even to learn that I enjoy it.

Exactly this "phenomenon" described by is what I wanted to illustrate, especially because I have experienced it in many ways AND with my own children as well; perhaps I did not find the right words :D. The moment we could no longer help financially due to personal circumstances, the knot noticeably burst for the young ones, even though it hurt me deeply not to be able to help them as much as was more usual among their friends. Looking back, they are also aware of this, so it does not come from me alone.

And even the 20k that remain, sorry: That's a lot. If you put 75% of that into an ETF savings plan etc. and take advantage of compound interest effects over 30 years, you'll have a nice extra income when you retire. And thanks to the high salary, not a bad pension either. AND hobbies lived out for 13.5k per year (let's be honest, I don't spend that much per year on the expensive hobby of gourmet cooking!?) And all that in expensive Bavaria. So where exactly was the problem again?

I don't see a problem. But you only earn that kind of money at around 30 years of age. Then it's hard to put it into ETFs if you have a house coming up, right? And the house has to be paid off in 30 years. Having children also reduces that with part-time work for husband or wife. You live well, but you're not rich, nor are you poor. Feels like middle. Statistically outside the middle.

I once deleted all my collected quotes here. Somehow it all comes down to the same thing, namely: I seem to be a very weak salary earner in comparison here. My husband probably fits into your thinking about "normal earnings." If I didn’t have him, according to most people here, I would probably end up on RTL2 Hart and Herzlich (or something like that).

And yet I managed to build property for myself, sustain myself alone with €1800 net after a divorce for 2 years, and then start again with a new build with my current husband. I waited tables as a teenager, without having studied or having to, and have always worked after my training. I have been through all the bubbles of the last 30 years (at least that was told to me here a few weeks ago): buying expensive and having to sell cheap.

Now I live in a Kfw70 house, have to heat with gas, no blinds, only cheap manual shutters and no double garage. By the way, our house does not stand out particularly negatively on our street – all houses there are just equipped so "spartan." So I don’t even feel less well-off on the surface...

Do you want to cry even more? Five years ago, I didn’t even bring home €2000 – despite responsibility at work. Without this responsibility, it would be even less that I bring home. Ok, I was also self-employed on the side, but that didn’t bring much. We, our household, are therefore far from your expectations.

The bashing of teachers is probably exactly because they somehow lost the focus of the world in "their" studies. But others here also seem to no longer know the basics. Instead, prosperity is demanded as a basis, state subsidies anyway.

I am not from Bavaria myself but from the Stuttgart area. However, I have many acquaintances from Bavaria and therefore know the area well. The regions I am referring to are the automotive locations within a 150km radius. For example Munich, Ingolstadt, Landshut, Regensburg.

There, apartments of 80 m² cost around 1000 euros rent, semi-detached houses about 1600 euros rent, and single-family houses about 2200 euros rent. All cold rents. However, you have to search for a long time and be lucky to get something reasonable at these prices.

Augsburg is actually considerably cheaper.

Living in Bavaria in a semi-detached house with 120 sqm and garden for under 12,000 euros cold p.a. – always these exaggerated claims, generalizations, etc. By the way, not somewhere in "Hintertupfing", but also in good proximity to the car manufacturer.

Felt middle

But you only "feel" that way if you have little or no contact with the statistical middle anymore. Something like a bubble. This is not a criticism, but rather normal – I'm just stating a fact. In the club of the top 10%, you are then at the border to the lower class...

Then it's hard to put money into ETFs if a house is coming up, right?

Well, a fully paid single-family house AND portfolio AND pension AND... is that the "felt" middle? Where it should or could work? That is wealth and no longer modest, but substantial. I often miss the context that captures this in self-assessments. Everyone is entitled to that.

I always read here about making money with money, since we are in the house building forum, there are only people here who have made it or have not done it at all, the rest are in the debt forum or something like that. Making money with money is a bet on the future and not a plannable income.

That is indeed a very German attitude towards company shares. And it is reflected in the investments of Germans. Take a long-term (!) approach with an investment period of 25 years. You can enter during a boom and exit during a bust and still do better than with savings books or overnight money accounts. And usually, you are far from this extreme. In the long term, the so-called "bet" always paid off. It’s also clear: Something that ruins the global economy so sustainably that this no longer works will ruin everything else too – then it doesn’t matter anymore. Short-term speculation is something else and necessary liquidity should not be tied up there either. And if you happen to belong to the less wealthy high earners who have to must should want to choose between a single-family house and ETFs? That’s life! Set your priorities!

These threads are always very popular… Popcorn for everyone.