Unclear property boundary and legal consequences

  • Erstellt am 2019-03-23 16:38:07

grericht

2019-03-24 14:31:47
  • #1


He hasn’t said anything yet. It is a rental building with many different tenants who are managed by an administration, and I have just recently identified the owner (a company from West Germany). I just wanted to first check the legal situation before I politely ask what they think and say. I assume that in this setup, not all matters can be settled amicably. So I consider having a certain negotiating position to be advisable.



That is currently my plan: to ask the owner (he owns both adjacent plots) if he has more precise information about the boundary line and if not, whether we can share the cost of an official land survey?! Or is he obligated to do so anyway?



The picture is the official aerial photo with cadastral boundaries from the city. It serves as a tool for me. The only more precise source seems to be the excerpt from the land register. 1:500 is the most accurate scale available there. I have now added that. But even there you don’t really see more about the property boundary. The building application is still interesting. The line shown there (which might represent the property boundary) runs midway through the "double" and along the outside of our wall right through the property. The alleged boundary marks are definitely not (easily) to be found. But I will inquire at the surveying office.

 

Winniefred

2019-03-24 18:17:59
  • #2
To me, it also looks like you won't be able to avoid a new survey. Basically, you only know whether and what problems you have once you know the exact boundary line. An owner from elsewhere will probably have no interest in this, and certainly not in sharing the costs; but I don't know to what extent you can obligate the neighbors. I think I would start with a survey and build on that. Everything else seems like crystal ball gazing to me.
 

Escroda

2019-03-24 20:12:24
  • #3
Yes, that’s good. You can recognize much better what it’s about, as the essential things, buildings and boundaries, are much clearer to see. No, you can only determine the exact boundary line based on the cadastral documents (survey sketches), but your father should be able to help you with that, unless he hasn’t dealt with cadastral surveying for 40 years. Yep, §919 Building Code. Whether the two boundary points will actually help you, I don’t know. After all, you have to determine inside the house where you currently stand in relation to the boundary. Solvable, but not easy. Yes, that could be an indication of a party wall. Do the dimensions correspond with the current building? Nevertheless, the cadastral extract strengthens my opinion: Cut down two trees and build new! Freestanding. The property is big enough, you don’t even have to demolish.
 

grericht

2019-03-27 15:56:08
  • #4

My father (no longer in service himself) is currently getting me an offer. So it will very likely come down to a survey/official boundary determination.


One boundary point is about 3m in front of the wall. It should be possible to tell very precisely whether it runs through the middle of the wall or through our planned living room.

Yes, the dimensions fit very precisely. If the building application from 1903 said "property boundary" at this line, we would actually have certainty. Then we would only have to clarify whether the boundary was ever moved. But there is nothing written on the line and it can only be suspected that this is the property boundary.
It definitely seems as if the neighboring house was actually planned and built as a detached house and the plan to build our house next to it was only created afterwards. Reason: the gable side actually had 2 windows on each floor in the gable wall in 1902. While stripping the plaster from the wall, I found an old poorly bricked-up window area. Poorly means that a brick came loose and behind it I found a free space of about 80*160cm. About 10cm deep with some insulation material inside. Then a drywall. So I have to assume that the neighbor’s apartment is already behind it. I don’t think it functions as a firewall.

We had actually considered that in the meantime. But I opened a second thread. Topic there: result of the soil survey. Conclusion: Sulfate Z2 and solid lead >Z2 in fills up to about 2.75m. So it would practically be planned with a basement (but groundwater level after a very dry year 2018 at 3.20m without a test for concrete aggressiveness) and the excavated soil would have to be taken to the landfill. That probably breaks our financing plan. And basically, we had always planned to renovate an old building. The 3-5 months of searching for houses were not exactly pleasant.

By the way, thank you for the extremely helpful answers!
 

Escroda

2019-03-28 07:17:51
  • #5
It depends on who you have tell you that, and what that person has done to arrive at their statement. Tell the surveyor on site what it's about for you. In any case, just the two boundary points will hardly help you. No, because even then you still wouldn’t know if it was actually built that way and whether the architect back then even cared about the correct boundary line. So it would indeed be possible that the existing windows are legal. IMHO, however, the neighbor bears the burden of proof. Tell the surveyor to include this point in the measurement. The hole is a great opportunity to determine the real wall thicknesses inside the building and their position relative to the boundary. The unclear legal situation regarding the window openings in the boundary wall might convince the neighbor to buy you the strip of land with your old building and then demolish it. You’d have to be able to negotiate well ...
 

Lumpi_LE

2019-03-28 08:33:17
  • #6
For the building application, you need an official survey anyway, so you can just commission it right away, there’s no need to guess so much.
 

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