Property search in Bonn. Questions about property acquisition.

Hello Respondents,

first of all, wow, that’s a quick response. Great.

Now, step by step. Basically, I’m not a construction expert, but I know a bit about the essential components of a construction and service description (thanks to friends and the internet). That’s where my confusion comes from. Almost all offers are based, for example, on a floor slab up to 25cm, C25. Masonry KfW 70 from 36.5cm to 42cm (depending on type of stone), no ETICS (this is important to me), Braas or Nelskamp concrete roof tiles, triple glazing at the windows UW 0.9 to 1.0, partly air-source heat pump with underfloor heating, others gas condensing boiler with solar and underfloor heating. That is why I can’t really decide at the moment. The services for a house (without "final equipment features") are not really very different. Of course, everyone has the best brick, the best windows, and the best heating.

.. oh great .... by that logic prefab house manufacturers and developers should be swimming in immense wealth .... forget it .... the competition is abundant and cutthroat in this industry ...

Well, if I assume 150m² and a company has a gross margin of €300.00/m² = €45,000.00. Not bad. Still, I don’t want to be misunderstood, fair service = reasonable price! I was just surprised by the differences between different companies. Incidentally, no one discloses the costs per building component (trade). That would make it easier for me. Then I could compare the providers for the pure closed shell with screed, heating, sanitary and basic electrical installation.

.. for non-experts an immense and unknown universe opens up .... just ask "Bauexperte" our moderator for help ...

I have already seen (Schenk construction consulting). I will do that :-)

... That’s how I work, too. If I have been able to option a plot of land—which is hard enough, as owners usually think they can do it better themselves—I want to be rewarded for the house construction as well. I’m not a realtor but a construction supervisor.

Understandable.

The legal side—I’m not a lawyer and cannot provide legal advice; in Germany this is exclusively reserved for advisory professions—looks like this: you can only withdraw from the contract if a right of withdrawal is formulated and included in the contract.

I see it similarly, so it’s too risky for me. I have read quite a bit about the practices of a well-known prefab house manufacturer!

I hope you can actually read a construction description (BB)? What is not written down is considered not purchased!

See introduction ;-)

You can assume that a quality single-family house of the KfW 70 efficiency category, built solidly, requires about €1,500.00/sqm living space. Soil surveys are not included in the price per sqm living space.

So one can assume that with offers around €1,350.00 someone is "cutting corners" somewhere or the company has not existed long enough to make it through the warranty phase?!?

With area code 067xx?

Known company? Green lettering on black background? If yes, what can you say about it? (Gladly also via private message if this should not be discussed here.)

How much money are you willing to invest?

I think this is the wrong context to juggle with bare numbers! I want to put it this way: the matter is for my son (as noted at the beginning) and I will invest what is necessary for our idea of a house. Naturally, the land should not be more expensive than the house. According to your cost example, such a house would cost approximately €220,000.00 to €240,000.00. That is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility for me (+ land, + incidental costs).

Much more important is the choice of the really important components when building a single-family house: how thick is the floor slab, which bricks are used, how is the roof constructed, which windows are installed, which technology ... etc. Which craftsmen are employed, how is the construction supervised, what securities does the provider offer ... etc. And very important: how is the consultation and how is it handled after signing the contract? The range within these components goes from cheap to absolutely high-priced and only becomes noticeable after moving in.

See introduction; however, at this stage, I can’t yet say which companies will carry out the work. I will definitely do construction supervision, whether developer or construction supervision. A good friend has long since convinced me of this! :-)

No, that is a typical misconception.

If assigned via an architect—which does not mean it is a bad choice—you must tender all trades at least 3 times and have the corresponding knowledge, if you do not want to be fully dependent on the well-being of the architect.

Why tender 3 times? I could simply "wildly" invite all companies from the Yellow Pages to quote for each trade, conduct the talks with an expert, and then decide. Doesn’t your construction consulting work this way, too? Or do you have fixed companies you work with?

BT means you acquire house and land from one source and pay the price in a maximum of 7 installments. You can influence the floor plans, the rest is done by the BT; so more or less relaxed leaning back.

Yes, the comfort is one side of the coin. But 7 installments? So far, I have only seen or been explained payment divisions with significantly more stages.

Classic construction supervision—and I do not mean supraregional providers or their salespeople—takes this work off your hands. That’s how we work, for example. We/or our architect first look at the land and then clarify the building law. Then we hold the consultation talks and plan the floor plan with our architect in the next step. During this time, which the creation of the drafts requires, we decide among our possible general contractors—based on the distance to the construction site and full files—which builder should build the house. With the 2nd drafts, we usually present a fixed price offer; after the 1st draft, changes are mostly made. Bull’s-eyes seldom succeed. Classic construction supervision accompanies a building project from the first meeting to moving in and — if all goes well — beyond. We live on recommendations ;)

That doesn’t sound bad in principle. Would you offer these (or parts of your) services as far as Bonn or between Bonn and Cologne? With which companies do you cooperate there? Surely there is also the option to submit your own sketches or amateur plans?

Hello,

you already did the first thing right. You are skeptical and question what is said. I am writing to you here as a builder, i.e. someone who has already made a decision about who to build with.

First, about those bundled offers... Only one thing I would advise now, although everything went smoothly for us: an external building supervision. It’s simply more objective and can argue quite differently. Normally, this role should be taken by our site manager, but he was a weakling without backbone and was afraid to report defects, which I ended up doing myself.

Thanks for the practical experiences. External building supervision certainly makes sense and is also planned by me. So here I have to praise two companies, they advised me very fairly in my opinion regarding the additional costs. Both included services such as basic soil survey, surveying, and an insurance package; the consultants (or a consultant) openly told me that I have to bear the earthworks additionally (the reasoning was also understandable), and they pointed out incidental costs such as development, realtor, notary, garden design, reserves for unplanned costs, etc. This still adds up to a considerable amount of incidental costs. One reason to consider how I might be able to optimize costs a bit through self-contracting based on architect plans and external construction supervision.

.. that is not wrong, that is absolutely right .. what on earth do the HOAI service phases have to do with this? You should read my post very, very carefully again .. thanks

That is wrong, too. It depends on which service phases of the architect you use. If it’s all of them, it gets more expensive. But especially the construction supervision phase is much more extensive, which drives the price.

To both, right and wrong. I’m sorry, I expressed myself poorly here. So far the consideration regarding the construction supervision was to have a house drawn by a friend (who is not an architect!) and then have it processed by an architect with regard to building permit, execution plans and statics. Then have construction supervision carried out by an independent expert and possibly have DEKRA approve the whole thing again. I almost fear this is not really cheaper either?!?

@Bauexperte: I will be out of the country for a few days starting this weekend, but I would like to learn more about your construction consulting. Gladly also via private message.

Best regards

Gerd Heymann

.. that is not wrong, that is absolutely right .. what on earth do the service phases of the HOAI have to do with it? You should read my post again very, very carefully .. thanks

Of course the architect's service phases have something to do with it. You don’t have to use all of them to complete a house with an architect. The use of all services of an architect is much more extensive, therefore more expensive. The cost savings from building with a contractor usually result from, for example, very limited construction supervision/construction monitoring.

An architect-designed house does not necessarily have to be more expensive than a well-planned house by a builder. Or do you think that just because someone orders a house from a catalog, the usual costs of architects are not also subsidized...

Otherwise, I would seriously doubt the legitimacy of architects, since every builder offers their customers the option to customize the catalog house. Utilizing this also drives the costs of such a house toward the cost of a freely designed architect house.

The same house with the same services, regardless of the partner, does not differ significantly in price. I can read my statements as many times as I want.

I almost fear, however, that it won't really get any cheaper either?!?

.. it is really possible to build an affordable house .. just !!!! .. that requires an incredible amount of own energy and is not easy and you need (since you are not an expert yourself) an incredibly good expert ... as I already wrote .... either you want the bicycle or the Maserati ... both serve the same purpose, only the costs are somewhat different ... :rolleyes:

Of course, the architect's service phases have something to do with it.

.. NO! .. once again .. NO!!! you should read the previous text again very carefully ..

The cost savings from building with a contractor usually only come from the fact that, for example, construction supervision / monitoring is very sparse.

.. an absolute nonsense ... in which industry do you actually work? In any case, there is no point in discussing your opinion and attitude with you, because you are not an expert ...

Hello Gerd,

no ETICS (this is important to me)

That already narrows down the selection.

Besides, no one discloses the costs per component (trade) to you. That would make it easier for me. I could then compare the providers for the pure closed shell with screed, heating, sanitary, and basic electrical installation.

This is because, as a rule, these are mixed calculations. If you want to see all trades broken down in front of you, you should commission an architect.

I see it similarly, so it’s too risky for me. I’ve read quite a bit about the practices of a well-known prefab house manufacturer!

If it is formulated fairly and without pitfalls for the potential builder, it’s a fine thing. I also prefer working with planning contracts, but sometimes it just doesn’t work otherwise.

So can one assume that with offers of €1350.00 somewhere “the wrong end” is being saved on or the company hasn’t existed long enough to endure the warranty phase?!?

You could assume that, but it would be too simplistic because there are always two sides to a coin.

There are providers who have consciously specialized in the “bargain hunter”; the surprise mostly comes after signing the work contract. Some who go too far – see IBG – end up in insolvency proceedings. You would hardly believe the educational levels of those who signed with this cheap provider. (I know because I have rejected numerous offers to complete started construction projects.)

On the other hand, some providers have deliberately positioned their offer at the lower limit of the Energy Saving Ordinance and technical regulations as an entry point into discussions. This is legitimate and nothing reprehensible or predetermined to be botched but often "feels" expensive when it comes to subcontracting. The construction project stands and falls with the choice of the executing builder => mostly franchisees.

Known company? Green letters on black background? If yes, what can you say about them? (Gladly also by private message if this shouldn’t be discussed here.)

Yep, exactly that provider.

According to your cost example, such a house would cost about €220,000.00 to €240,000.00. For me, that’s certainly not out of the question (+ land, + incidental costs).

I always "check" early on the attitudes and mindset of potential builders; hence my question. Your answer is enough for me to know that you understand what your construction project will cost.

I will definitely do construction supervision, whether developer or construction management. A good friend has long since convinced me of this! :-)

Good! That saves me lengthy repetitions :D

Why tender 3 times? I can just "randomly" tender each trade to all the companies from the Yellow Pages, conduct the talks with an expert, and then decide.

I think you => the language of the Internet is the informal "you" :D – Do you have no idea of the time and costs (expert) required? Quantity is not the solution to the puzzle, but quality. It is absolutely sufficient to tender each trade – by the way, from earthworks to move-in, 16 trades plus architect, structural engineer, energy consultant, soil expert, surveyor, and construction supervision – 3 times each. For this, the architect must prepare the specifications (performance descriptions) so that the requested services are verifiable and comparable for you. Even just that already results in quite a few hours that a good expert normally charges from €55.00 per hour upwards.

Does your construction consulting not work this way as well? Or do you have fixed companies you work with?

Yes and no.

Yes, if our client wants to be more involved in the construction project and tender the trades individually. Then he works with our second architect, who also takes over construction management; external expertise is naturally additionally welcome.

No, if our client wants a secured fixed-price offer. Then the choice of builder depends on the construction site location and the order books of our builders. In this segment, we work exclusively with regional and execution-familiar builders; long-term experience is the focus here. Another pair of eyes is also welcome in this segment.

But 7 steps? So far, I have only seen or been explained payment schedules that involved significantly more stages.

You are confusing something – I wrote about developer contracts. That’s something different because you buy land and construction from a single source; the land belongs to the developer. These developers are bound by the broker and developer regulation and issue their invoices in a maximum of 7 installments, of which the first installment is usually >30% as the land price is included in the calculation. By the way, the red colleagues operate similarly, whether they own the land or not.

General contractors/assignees on the market work with more payment steps; up to 20 payment steps at the peak. Here attention should be paid that payments are made only after construction progress.

That sounds fundamentally not bad. Would you also offer these (or parts of your) services up to Bonn or between Bonn and Cologne? Surely there’s also the option to submit your own sketches or layman’s plans?

Take a look at our homepage – you can access it via my signature; so yes.

If sketches already exist and are suitable for costing, there is nothing against submitting them to me. Naturally, with further information regarding the desired equipment.

So far, the consideration regarding construction management was to have a house drawn by a friend (who is not an architect!)

Draftsman?

and then have it processed by an architect regarding the building application, execution plans, and statics. Then have an independent expert carry out the construction supervision and possibly have DEKRA inspect it again. However, I almost fear this is not really cheaper either?!?

Regarding architectural costs, it will not be cheaper; that’s correct because the later architect must prepare the drawings for the building application and, after hopefully receiving the approval without conditions, convert them into execution plans. That means he must transfer the drawings into his system – and there are quite a few of those.

In my experience, a construction project with an architect is not cheaper; firstly, because he makes cost estimates at the beginning which only become more specific upon receipt of tender documents. Secondly, collaboration with an architect often leads to supposedly "saved" money being redirected to higher quality equipment. In the end, it’s always the same: a piece of house always requires a price "X," regardless of who builds it.

@Bauexperte: I will be out of the country for a few days from the weekend but would like to learn more about your construction consulting. Gladly also by private message.

We can gladly do that; whether PM or phone call is up to you.

Rhenish regards

.. NO! .. once again .. NO!!! you should read the previous text carefully again .. .. an absolute nonsense ... in which industry do you actually work? In any case, there is no point in discussing your opinion and attitude with you, because you are not an expert ...

There’s no reason to get bloodshot eyes right away. After all, sugar is always more expensive than cheaper sugar.