Full vinyl vs vinyl with HDF board

Hello,
in terms of foot warmth, the Vollvinyl (VV) and the Vinyl on HDF (VH) are identical. They have the same surfaces after all.

Both variants are constructed very similarly:
The top layer is a multi-layer overlay (mostly PU coating, on wear layer, on decorative foil, on vinyl backing) with a thickness of about 1.5 to 2 mm.
This - I will call it - "vinyl layer" is then glued onto the actual carrier board.
The carrier board can be a plastic board (mostly PVC) --> VV
or an HDF board --> VH.
Below these carrier boards, there is often an impact sound insulation layer such as cork for VH or foamed insulation layers for the VV variant.

So roughly speaking, both variants consist of a vinyl top layer and a carrier layer (plus possible insulation).

What are now the advantages or disadvantages of VV and VH (in comparison of these two!)

VV advantages:

[*]lower build height
[*]slightly less walking noise than VH
[*]cleanable with water
[*]suitable for wet rooms
[*]no dimensional change due to changes in humidity
[*]slightly better heat transfer (underfloor heating)
[*]installation: quiet, dust-free, faster cutting with knife

VV disadvantages:

[*]less pressure stable (permanent pressure marks under constant point load)
[*]greater plank deformation under heavy furniture
[*]higher flatness requirements for the subfloor
[*]when installed over tiles (joint > 3mm) filling necessary
[*]no installation over floating floors (on laminate etc.!)
[*]high deformation with temperature changes
[*]full-surface bonding required for large glass areas.
[*]usually special, more expensive underlay mats required if no integrated insulation
[*]ecologically less "green"

VH advantages:

[*]no dimensional change due to temperature fluctuations
[*]higher stability under point loads
[*]and under higher loads from heavy furniture
[*]"normal" flatness requirements for subfloor
[*]can be installed over floating floors
[*]can be installed easily over larger tile joints
[*]click connection with higher pull-out values
[*]ecologically "greener"

VH disadvantages:

[*]build height
[*]clean only slightly damp
[*]not for wet rooms
[*]somewhat(!) clappier sound (but still much better than laminate...)
[*]deformation / joint formation with humidity changes
[*]worse heat transfer (underfloor heating)

From experience, the VV have a serious disadvantage: temperature-related deformation.
Most damage cases or complaints arise with modern, large glass fronts. Huge window fronts and balcony doors heat up the surface of VV so strongly that deformations and joint breakouts occur. Complaints always lead to disputes about whether floating installation was still allowed or full bonding would already be prescribed. Because manufacturers often keep their formulations in the installation instructions deliberately vague... "with increased sun exposure..." what is increased?

If any questions arise, please just ask.
Best regards
Wieli

Thank you for the explanations. We want to equip the basement and attic of our new building with click full vinyl (on heated screed). On the one hand, we have no significant sunlight exposure. Other reasons for full vinyl with us: we trust ourselves with the click variant; full vinyl has no problem with moisture (laundry room, hobby room...); apparently good suitability for underfloor heating (with the appropriate thin insulation mat depending on the manufacturer). Currently, we are having difficulty choosing: the common brand manufacturers offer products that at first glance appear similar within a comparable price range. After ordering some samples, we can now somewhat narrow down the options with regard to appearance, but there are still plenty of options remaining. Are there any recent experiences regarding the quality of the various manufacturers with respect to the click connection (ease of installation, stability), surface durability, etc.? Regards, Andreas

Hello Andreas!
I am not aware of any significant quality differences among the well-known manufacturers (within the same price range).
A difference of a few euros – with the same quality! – arises from:

[*]board size (XXL)
[*]more realistic decors
[*]synchronized embossing (where there is a knot in the décor photo, there is also a knot embossed in the protective layer)
[*]private label brands of retail chains
[*]click system (patent fees)

None of these points say anything about quality, but they can account for a few euros difference.

In general, all well-known manufacturers are good. With private labels, dig deeper to find out who the actual manufacturer is. Possibly also find out via the EAN code. (One of the largest manufacturers, who also produces for many retailers, is the Swiss company Lico)

I would stay away from very cheap (DIY store) products. Usually, container loads of leftover quantities are bought from China, where I am not so sure if all substances would pass a health check (e.g., plasticizers already banned in Europe, etc.)
I also do not recommend products under 4mm, because there is very little material to mill a stable click system. 4-5mm (without an insulating layer) is ideal.

Important, but actually already standard, is a PU coating as surface treatment. It makes the floor more scratch-resistant and easier to maintain.

The wear layer should be 0.3mm for residential use. More, e.g., 0.55mm usually brings very little benefit. It does not make it more scratch-resistant! It would only take longer until you have worn the wear layer down to the décor. And you won’t achieve that in a household in decades... So don’t let a salesperson persuade you to pay for a higher price category because of that!

In my opinion, the click connections are really unimportant. Every system works, also in the long term (quality). You will have the floor for decades, so don’t worry about the 2 days you spend installing it! The hour you might save on 50 sqm is actually not worth a cent, right? Nobody will care about that afterward.

Answered everything, or do you have any questions left?
You can also gladly post the floor of your choice so I can give you an assessment of it.
Best regards, Wieli

Many thanks from me as well for the extensive information.

In terms of the samples and the promised quality features, we currently find planeo Isocore great. As far as I understand, the actual development of the whole thing comes from the USA and is also used there by companies like Allure, Aspecta Flooring, and others.

New in Germany, to my knowledge not available a few months ago: This Isocore technology is also used by the Bauhaus brand b!Design. Clearly also in the upper price segment there.

In any case, we had various samples from well-known manufacturers and found Isocore (in our case from planeo) very good both haptically (embossing synchronisation) and in terms of stability (we performed various scratch tests with keys) as well as the advertised properties.

Mainly important for us: Installation without problems even for, e.g., 20 x 20 meters, because allegedly no (!) expansion of any kind. Is that true? Most vinyls are only approved up to 10 meters or 8 x 12, etc...

Hello Grym,
the Isocore boards are produced by HWZ International in Switzerland. You can find more information on their homepage (under the name "Sly").
The quality is excellent. The prices for, for example, the XXL are between 39.90 and 43.90 – so a somewhat higher price range. We have had these on sale for some time now and I am also convinced of this technology (in the vinyl sector). I have not mentioned such special features as Isocore represents in my posts so far, because that would have gone too much into detail.
But here are the key points:

[*]The Isocore carrier board is considerably more stable compared to the "normal" vinyl carrier boards when it comes to expansion due to temperature differences. The board is not 100% solid vinyl but is filled with – under extreme pressure injected – micro air cells. This creates a foam-like solid structure that deforms or expands less.
[*]The underlay on the back is also good, especially an advantage with underfloor heating, as it is fixed glued – so no additional air layers are possible (which would slow down heat transfer).
[*]Ceramic particles in the coating – these have proven themselves in lacquer products. I believe it is no different with vinyl.
[*]For those who need it: antibacterial equipped

The click system is a fold-down, meaning the long side is angled, and the short side is joined in the same step – like a snap button. These systems are somewhat faster than the classic angle-angle systems, but as already mentioned, this is actually not important for the end result.

Regarding your specification of 20x20m, I am not 100% sure from the manufacturer's specification, but I will let you know tomorrow. The statement that the boards do not expand is definitely wrong. As said, less risky than "normal" vinyl, but I would personally not risk 20m. You then have one area that has to withstand different room climates. And if tensions occur, the narrow door area is especially the bottleneck or almost already a predetermined breaking point...

Best regards
Wieli

On our side, the current selection includes: Parador Vinyl Basic 4.3 or Classic 2050 as well as wineo 600 or 800 (each with slightly less or more wear layer (which seems less important to us) and different click systems). Since we are still not completely happy/sure about the look/color, we will continue to look for a bit longer (we still have three weeks...).

We recently came across the Sly as well. With this one, we were 1. unsure whether the integrated impact sound insulation (and thus a higher construction height of 7 to 7.5 mm) compared to the other systems with separate and "softer" insulation mats is an advantage or disadvantage for laying on our fresh heated screed? 2. I read in the installation instructions for the Sly regarding the substrate flatness tolerance the requirement "3 mm over 1.8 m." For the common German products, there is usually a reference to the corresponding DIN with 3 mm over 1 m or 5 mm over 2 m (i.e., lower requirements).

Regards, Andreas