Hollow bricks and mineral insulation unfavorable?

Hello Alex85!

And I’m happy to burst your bubble that this is a cheap alternative. The surcharge is about €35 per sqm compared to ETICS with EPS. In addition to the higher material cost, the processing effort is higher, because EPS is simply glued onto a smooth surface (which should be given in new construction ), mineral wool is doweled. The dowels cost money and, above all, labor time. Depending on the house, this can add up to a surcharge of €10,000 compared to EPS. It’s not without cost.

Stop, I don’t mean that mineral insulation is a cheap alternative – but cheaper than monolithic construction for KfW 55 or even KfW 40, if I’ve understood correctly so far, so priced between plastic ETICS and monolithic construction.
A €10k surcharge is okay, especially for better indoor climate, if you believe what’s written.
And I simply don’t want to seal us in completely with plastic *brr*

Besides the mineral wool, which doesn’t like to be dipped in water (process quickly and apply exterior plaster on it, then it’s done) because it then loses its insulating effect. "Mineral insulation" doesn’t necessarily mean mineralwool. There are also mineral insulation boards such as Ytong Multipor or Webertherm MD. However, these are not free either and their disadvantage is the worse thermal conductivity group 045 (mineral wool and EPS 035, Neopor 032), i.e. the boards are somewhat thicker to achieve the same insulation.

Ytong Multipor sounds great!
Does it “get along” with hollow bricks or hollow brick masons, or is there a better alternative more suited to hollow bricks?
Webertherm MD seems to be interior insulation? The Weber ETICS I found, which seemed to be mineral-based, all had an EPS base – is that necessary? If yes, that would be somehow pointless; if optional, I would skip it, then that might be a possibility, seems to be advertised sometimes specifically for bricks from the photos.

Please don’t take horror stories too seriously, no matter the wall construction. All building materials have their pros and cons and nobody deliberately installs total failures. Construction companies always proclaim whatever they like to use themselves as super-duper.

But plastic ETICS is rubbish

Best regards & many thanks,
Christian

Stop, I don't mean that mineral insulation is a cheap alternative – but cheaper than monolithic construction for KfW 55 or even KfW 40, if I have understood correctly so far, so priced between plastic ETICS and monolithic construction.

That depends and I wouldn’t generalize. With ETICS you achieve better insulation with a thinner wall structure, which also has a value in the form of saved space.

An extra 10k€ is okay, especially for a better living climate, if one is to believe what is written.

You shouldn’t, that’s voodoo. Everyone who promotes their building materials babbles something about living climate. All nonsense. Walls don’t breathe either, in case that’s the next thing.

And I just don’t want to entomb us completely in plastic *brr*

That’s okay. You have to feel good about your decision (no, not in the sense of feeling good about room climate ). “Entombing in plastic” is just a mental thing and not rationally justified (that’s not to say EPS ETICS doesn’t have disadvantages – it does).

Does it “get along” with perforated bricks or with perforated brick masons, or is there a better alternative that fits perforated bricks?

I would rather say perforated bricks are not the most sensible base for an ETICS. Sand-lime brick is your friend. They are flat, offer sound insulation, can be easily drilled for dowels, etc.

But basically, I don’t know if that is a sensible combination. From what I feel, you rarely see “red” bricks with ETICS, but that may also depend on the region.

WeberTherm MD seems to be interior insulation? The Weber ETICS I found, which seemed mineral, all had an EPS base – is that needed?

Yes, true, I was mistaken. But there are certainly ETICS made of other materials as well. Hemp, wood, PUR, resol boards up to vacuum insulation. In the base area, XPS is mostly used due to its compressive strength, yes. Also for insulation under slab floors, under underfloor heating (although often only EPS there) … these latter examples show that even a monolithically built house will very well come into contact with EPS. But I also wouldn’t know where the drama should lie in that.

But plastic ETICS are rubbish

Depends on who you ask and how you define rubbish. Fact is, this discussion is full of passion. This can also be dug up via the search function.

But basically, I don't know if that's a sensible combination. It feels like you rarely see "red" with ETICS, but that could also be due to the region.

Here, including for the OP, a lot is built with Poroton. Houses with Poroton + ETICS form the largest group among new builds here. However, I also think that KS is the better alternative if you decide on ETICS.

Hello you two!

Just very briefly: The FIBAV corporate structure we currently favor (Königslutter near Braunschweig) offers, according to the construction descriptions, perforated bricks with ETICS (fire protection class B2, sounds a lot like Styrofoam or similar) – KS is not mentioned. What would you think fits better with the bricks? Our insulation should not be flammable and also should not potentially smolder away with toxic gases... It also should not be treated with toxic fire retardants that might leach out over the years.

That doesn’t seem sensible to me, especially the words "toxic" and "flammable"/"fire"...

Best regards, Christian

B2 sounds like EPS, yes. HBCD has not been included in EPS since 201x. But I would be interested in what is supposed to leach out there. Fires on the facade of single-family homes are very rare and B2 does not mean that it burns like tinder. You would already be out of the house long before that. But that is my opinion and a good example of the dramatization of these issues. Of course, mineral wool manufacturers emphasize the better fire protection of their products, which is indeed better, but I strongly doubt whether the great panic about EPS is really justified. Horrific stories of burning little houses certainly make the cash register ring [emoji4] Residential building insurances that cover fire are not more expensive for EPS facades than for monolithic facades. This as an indication of how risk management professionals assess this.

I think, as a builder, one should not concern themselves too much with the singer dispute for its own sake. No concrete house planning advances by indulging in dreams of bio-bricks or imagining one’s house moss green and woodpecker-pecked. Both extremes endow the banal building component of the exterior wall with a mythical dimension, when it really is only supposed to separate the inside from the outside and support the roof. The craft of building should be left to those who already mastered it before this fashion debate even existed. Even aspects that are not entirely insignificant can still be significantly overestimated. Every building material misses the egg of Columbus in its perfection at a different point. What is certain, however, is that one can invite quality problems by forcing one’s masons experienced with X to work with Y.