Gas vs. Air-Water Heat Pump

@Specki
did you also read the article or why is it "strange" in your eyes?

No, I was referring to your statement.

Let me guess, you have a heat pump + photovoltaics?
Always the same, that most homeowners defend their system to the death and want to crush (partly justified) criticism at the root – here clearly unobjective and childish –.....

But you are so completely wrong!

I bought an old building over 4 years ago, then threw out the ancient oil heating and had a gas heating system installed at the time. And I now quite regret that. As of now, I wouldn't do that anymore. Even though the gas heating probably makes even more sense in the old building than in a new one.

In the new building (maybe in 2 years) I would only install a heat pump + photovoltaics. Why? Because it is (usually) the most ecological and economical system.

As you can see, I am not defending MY system but simply come to the conclusion after thorough research that it is the best one. In any case better than gas in a new building, if you don't just look at the investment costs but consider it ecologically and economically over the next decades.

But there are also people who come to a different conclusion. That’s also okay. But please not with an argumentation like the one you derived from the article.

Regards
Specki

What is supposed to be hazardous waste about a heat pump? You still owe us the answer.

And why should anyone worry today about what will be a cheap energy source in 20 years?? In new buildings, almost only underfloor heating is installed anyway, which is compatible with pretty much everything. If the heating system breaks down, you just buy a new one, depending on the current subsidies and situation.

Personally, I still consider gas to be the cheapest and easiest way to heat. That won't change anytime soon. Nord Stream 2 will be completed despite Trump's trade war against us.

What is supposed to be hazardous waste about a heat pump? You still owe us the answer.

If the heating system is broken, you just buy a new one, depending on the current subsidies and situation.

Exactly this behavior. I have also read this several times here regarding the Geisha ("If it breaks, I'll just buy a new one, it doesn't cost anything"). You could also declare smartphones as hazardous waste because many simply buy a new one after two years. This is how I interpret the use of the word "hazardous waste" in the article.

See also my reply from 13:44 to michert.

then I was probably way off, sorry for my rash judgment!

In the eyes of supporters, heat pumps are the salvation for the climate, ideally powered by green electricity: heating and hot water, solely from wind and solar power, completely without CO2 emissions. For others, they are a huge mistake, a miscalculation, and the hazardous waste of tomorrow.

Because heat pumps often operate less efficiently than expected, they burden not only homeowners’ wallets but also the German energy transition. Especially in the winter months, when sun and wind do not reliably supply electricity, the demand is highest to keep the many millions of turbines turning.

Falk Auer is a skeptic. The 76-year-old geophysicist and engineer from Lahr in the Black Forest has been dealing with energy supply issues for decades. Together with some associates, he published a “Heat Pump Manifesto” that has caused quite a stir in the industry.

“We oppose the massive use of up to 15 million heat pumps without considering the consequences,” says Auer. The core of the controversial paper: heat pumps require ever more electricity, which will not be available. And should not be available, as the German government actually aims to reduce electricity consumption by 25 percent by 2050. Secondly: in particular, the inexpensive and therefore popular air-source heat pumps are inefficient.

Electricity demand must be covered by coal
“Even if the necessary transition of electricity production to renewable energies were to happen as desired, the timing of heat pump demand and the generation of photovoltaic and partly wind power does not match,” the manifesto, also signed by other energy experts from Hesse, including Werner Neumann, spokesman of the Federal Working Group on Energy in the scientific advisory board of BUND, states.

It continues: “It is therefore to be assumed that the electricity demand of heat pumps must currently and for decades still be covered by coal power plants.” Ironically, heat pumps could thus block the energy transition.

etc. In the WELT+ article, the Federal Heat Pump Association also has its say, etc. Buy the article or test the WELT+ trial subscription and decide for yourselves what you believe and think about how things will develop in the future (gas price, electricity price). Nobody can predict 100%!

I am not a gas condensing boiler salesperson or anything else, but I simply want to bring points speaking against a heat pump into the discussion. Everyone can then form their own judgment. However, it does no good to start ranting immediately (without real substantive contradiction) like Specki did.

You don't have to include a Geisha. There are great modulating air-to-water heat pumps with propane as the refrigerant. The fact that hardly anyone thinks about refrigerants is actually somewhat hypocritical.

You could also declare smartphones as hazardous waste, because many simply buy a new one after two years. This is how I interpret the use of the word "Sondermüll" in the article.

Well then everything is clear....

Buy the article or test the WELT+ trial subscription [..]

I am not a gas condensing boiler dealer or anything else,

I believe you immediately that you are not a gas condensing boiler dealer.

However, it doesn't help to immediately rant like Specki did (without any real substantive contradiction)

Then something substantive

Weltplus article? Seriously? Sorry, but I don't really see that as more meaningful than a BILD article. Anyone can claim anything, and such articles usually like to stir up "mood" for or against something.

You still owe the definition of hazardous waste. Just because something may "quickly" become waste doesn't mean it is hazardous waste. That is something completely different. Also, I don't know why a heat pump should break down so much faster than any other heating system? Heat pumps can also be repaired. Just because they are usually quite low-maintenance (some say maintenance-free) doesn't mean they can't be repaired if something is defective.

Also, in winter – with poor planning and high demand – people heat with electricity and the price can really skyrocket (especially for homeowners who blindly trust the general contractor, because they care less about the later electricity consumption in winter).

You must not blame poor planning or an incompetent or uninterested general contractor for the technology itself. That would be like saying photovoltaic systems are not really efficient because of the storage, just because currently too many people let solar installers talk them into a battery with their systems.
We must of course assume that proper planning was done, the heat pump fits the concept, and the good planning is properly implemented. Then the technology works as it should, namely well!

I see it similar to the electric car. You simply cannot say for sure whether the e-car will definitely prevail

Believe me, the e-car will prevail. Probably not as the only vehicle for individual transport, but probably as the one that most people use. When you deal with it extensively and look beyond Germany, you can hardly see it any other way, I think.

Likewise, hydrogen can play a major role in the coming years for energy supply in single-family houses (seasonal electricity storage?).

I haven't calculated it, but I claim that if you want to carry the sun's energy from summer into winter via a hydrogen tank, it will be very expensive and a very large storage you need. I dare say that it is more than uneconomical. And also simply unecological due to poor efficiency.
What speaks against drawing some electricity from the grid in winter for the heat pump?
If you install a proper photovoltaic system on the roof, I claim you can cover up to 50% or more of the heat pump’s electricity with your own generated power. Properly configured (PLANNING, see above) it works even without storage. And the rest is purchased. Done. There are other renewable energy sources like wind and water, so there will also be electricity. If necessary, a gas power plant can always be ramped up. That can be done within minutes. Yes, a lot still has to happen in the next years, but it will. For the private person in their single-family house, I still see the heat pump as currently the best solution.

Sure, the gas price can also explode – just like the electricity price, but no one here really knows that.

And again a reason FOR the heat pump. Given the current political situation and how things look for the future, gas prices will rise significantly more than electricity prices. And with a proper photovoltaic system, I can even make myself largely independent of this price increase. With gas I can't do that.

Of course, one should plan accordingly so that if the heat pump is the absolute number 1 in 10–15 years ..., one can then also get one .... Until then, the gas boiler with its low acquisition costs has certainly done a good job!

Could be.
BUT: it could also be that one has paid dearly because gas prices have risen sharply and one could have secured electricity prices to a good percentage for the next 30 years now (assuming the lifetime of a photovoltaic system) with a photovoltaic system.
Oh, and one has merrily continued burning fossil fuels.... climate and such... not so great.

So, I hope that was enough substantive criticism for you. I really didn't have time earlier.
Of course, this is just my humble opinion as a layman who doesn’t even own a heat pump. And you are welcome to see it differently. But then it should be somewhat more well-founded and not just based on some strange article babbling about hazardous waste.

Cheers and good night
Specki