Real estate loan with high collateral but low ongoing income

  • Erstellt am 2019-04-13 01:15:55

HilfeHilfe

2019-04-14 08:02:50
  • #1
Ask the guy with 5 million in debt .... well, I have 20 cases of beer in the basement ... at least that's what I tell all the neighbors … although I don't even have a basement
 

Kekse

2019-04-14 10:22:29
  • #2
Talk to the bank. Basic inquiries do not end up at the Schufa and I was also told that being pregnant does not count for the loan. And what happened? 8-month baby bump and none of several banks and brokers cared even the slightest bit.
 

Minitrump

2019-04-14 23:34:57
  • #3
If I draw an interim conclusion, which is essentially based on the statements of the user nordanney (thanks), then there are no legal regulations that every bank is required to apply mandatorily regarding the granting of credit. This is already pleasing since it means there is a certain scope for negotiation. Of course, every bank has its internal guidelines, which can sometimes differ significantly; that is clear.

:
Just for understanding:
It would therefore be legally compliant with banking supervision law if a bank granted a homeless person without income and without equity a loan of 1,000,000 €? It is self-evident that no bank would do that, but the bank would not get into trouble with any credit supervisory authorities because of that. Is that correct?

Now to the specific requirements at your bank, especially regarding the required annuity of 6%:
I assume that this 6% annuity does not only refer to the new loan to be taken out, but also to all existing loans (with fixed interest rates). (Otherwise, the situation would look significantly better for me).
So concretely:
Total loan amount: 535,000 €. 6% of that is about 32,000 € per year or approximately 2,670 € per month. Both rental apartments generate a monthly rent of about 1,850 € (very conservative; I could even increase the currently received rent). Of that, 80% will be credited, so about 1,480 €, which I also have roughly available for loan repayment. This leaves a difference of almost 1,200 € or roughly 14,500 € per year.
I also receive dividend/income from interest (I completely exclude capital gains here, or are they also counted as income by your bank (e.g., for accumulating bond funds, which per se generate no ongoing income?)). Last year, that was about 5,000 € or a bit more than 400 € per month.
What I forgot: I also inherited and receive rental income from shares of fully paid-off properties of about 500 € per month. So the bank would credit about 400 € per month. And then I also receive about 200 € per month in the context of this inheritance settlement (there are no notarized contracts for this, but I actually receive this amount). Or would something like that not be credited by the bank?
By my calculation, I would now have ongoing bank-relevant income of about 2,480 € without pension payments. So about 200 € per month are still missing to guarantee this 6% annuity.
Now I simply say: I need 1,300 € for living, I can allocate these 200 € from the pension for your hypothetical 6% annuity.

Or how much does your bank reckon as necessary to live on per month (for someone who does not have to pay rent)?

(And another possibility: Since not all periods are probably considered yet, the pension amount could still rise somewhat; but that is currently in process and not yet certain)

From my point of view, the conditions regarding your capital serviceability requirement of a 6% annuity are met. Or would the conversation already end after a few minutes and no loan would be granted to me with you?
If yes, what exactly would be the reason for that?

Now I come back to my planned holding period of 7 years:
I am aware of the tax issue with the 10 years already, but I initially limited myself to the variant where the bank would be most likely to grant a loan (which would be more likely with a planned term of 7 instead of 10 years).

What I still fundamentally do not understand:
Why can certain pledged valuables not be used as a substitute for ongoing income regarding the 6% annuity?

For example
1.
The brute force method: I pledge the bank 100,000 € in cash. (--> of course, this makes little sense since this money then does not work for one but rather may even incur penalty interest). The loan repayment for the next 7 years would thereby be guaranteed without ifs or buts. (Because of the inheritance matters, considerably less would be necessary, the 100,000 € is purely based on the annual difference of 14,500 €, i.e., if only the rental income from the mortgaged / to be charged property is taken into account).

2.
I pledge my life insurance. I do not want to touch that until maturity anyway. And additionally a conservative investment fund. Or is this life insurance too illiquid to guarantee capital serviceability?

Or is the bank legally obligated (/according to internal guidelines) to assume that the loan must be continuously serviced until final repayment, even if the customer repeatedly points out, despite immorality, that he only wants to hold the property for 7 years?

If the bank would agree to such an approach, I would also inquire about a corresponding 10-year term variant.

Basically, I must state that at your bank probably half of my acquaintances whose income and credit situations I know would not have gotten a loan from you (because of this 6% annuity). In particular, the mentioned 5-million loan investor would not have gotten a loan, and he has loans with various major banks (but not with mine). Are these 6% annuities fixed as definitive exclusion criteria at your bank or how does the situation look if now it turns out for an interested party that they would reach an annuity of 5.8%? Do they irrevocably get no loan or do they get one with somewhat worse interest rates, or is an eye sometimes turned and the interest rate would be the same as if they reach a 7% annuity?

@everyone:
Which specific internal bank regulations are you familiar with regarding capital serviceability?

:
Ok, I will look at this group to see if I get more information.

:
What exactly should I ask my acquaintance? I already talked to him about my situation; he does not know the credit granting guidelines in my situation any better. However, he has always gotten a loan without problems. But you are supposedly a banker and therefore should be very familiar with the situation, but unfortunately, your posts do not really help me.

In general:
I want to avoid fundamental discussions about the sensibility of this planned action. Just so much: I am almost certain that prices will continue to rise soon in metropolitan areas (where I intend to buy) (except for terrorism like atomic bombings or poison gas attacks, etc.; but then other matters would have priority than discussing the profitability of investments – if one would even be able to achieve anything at all then).
On the one hand, practically everyone who gets a loan today buys instead of renting (or many former bond investors are now investing in real estate because of the meager interest rates), and since the ECB should remain with its low interest rate policy for a while, this purchasing trend should continue. On the other hand, in metropolitan areas, as opposed to greenfield sites, everything is already largely built up, so hardly any more real estate supply can come about; at the same time, existing companies expand / new ones settle here, i.e., more workers are needed; but people also become lazier, traffic jams increase, etc., so demand for real estate in metropolitan areas tends to rise, which leads to higher prices, even though so-called real estate experts have continuously regarded prices there as too high for over 25 years, during which I have tracked the development. But reality proves the opposite. I am convinced that on balance already, expensive real estate by price per square meter will become even more expensive and already cheap real estate rather cheaper. (there are exceptions here).
In a few years, interest rates should again be at historic averages; prices will rather stagnate, but rents will rise significantly. And if a strong recession with significant real estate price declines really came, one still has profits already earned through the repayments made or the higher rent compared to interest, repairs, etc. Moreover, such a recession does not happen overnight, and if indicators deteriorate, one can very quickly sell real estate in metropolitan areas again. And if all goes wrong, you lose money. The risk-return ratio of such a debt-financed real estate investment is currently extraordinarily higher than in any other asset class. (20% equity return is no rarity there).
But I would prefer if the discussion were limited to banks’ credit granting practices.
 

HilfeHilfe

2019-04-15 07:06:36
  • #4
Hello,

you write novels and see yourself as a victim. Nothing can be changed about your situation at the moment and you have brought yourself into this situation due to lack of insurance. There is no need to discuss the sense and nonsense of the credit guidelines either. Go to the bank and discuss everything. They can do no more than say no.

Besides, you are still in a luxurious starting position. You probably won't be living on bread and water
 

Tassimat

2019-04-15 09:08:52
  • #5
My perspective on how I understood you: You want to buy a property now, hold it for seven years, and then sell it. In terms of returns, it should bring +/- 0 euros. That is a loss-making deal since you have burned the ancillary purchase costs. Added to that is the general rental risk, the risk of falling property prices, the pressure to "have to" sell in 7 years, etc.

And then you want to pledge some free funds, babble about inheritances, life insurance policies, etc.... why are you doing this to yourself?

Sorry, the whole project is nonsense to the power of ten!

Since you don't want to be dissuaded: Why don't you just go to your bank??? They won't hurt you, you are already a good customer. They won't tear your head off. Are you afraid they will say no?

Never mind. Do you want to make money in the long term? Then hold the thing permanently. Do you want to invest money short-term (7 years)? Make a conventional investment in stocks or something similar.
 

Minitrump

2019-04-15 13:53:55
  • #6
:
The goal of my thread is to find out which SPECIFIC regulations prevail in banks regarding debt service capacity. (Only once I know these can I make an assessment about their senselessness or not). I received specific information regarding this from user nordanney about his bank. However, he also said that these regulations differ from bank to bank. Therefore, I am also interested in which specific regulations apply in other banks. Does your bank also have a 6% annuity regulation or what is SPECIFICALLY required at your place?
Once I have gathered some information on this, I can make a somewhat representative picture and then go into a conversation with my bank. But I certainly will not talk to them unprepared and not if it is likely that they will not grant me a loan. I would rather wait until I have a normal income again. In any case, I do not want to unnecessarily talk to them about my current health condition.
I am not complaining about my overall financial situation. I get by quite well (just not quite so well with pension income alone). In any case, I am glad that I did not take out private occupational disability insurance because with my current health condition they would very likely not have paid (arm off or leg off, for example, is not enough for a payment), so I now have more liquidity available. And even if they did pay, it would, as with almost all insurances, be a losing proposition, since in my case I am probably not permanently disabled and therefore would not benefit from any payments to such an extent.

:
As I said, I do not want to talk about the meaningfulness of my project in this thread. You are welcome to start your own thread about it. There I can also explain it to you in more detail. But not here. Just briefly: You misunderstood: not the return, but the ongoing cash flow, i.e. the current liquidity situation, is supposed to remain at approximately zero, i.e. unchanged, due to the borrowing. The return on equity should be about 20% p.a. and thus much higher than in stocks and so on (but of course it depends on what collateral must be provided (if at all possible); this is exactly what I want to find out through this thread).
That I want to take the loan with the same bank where I already have the first loan has various reasons, including that they have first-ranking mortgages on two more of my properties, which can still be leveraged significantly more. It does make a difference whether now a foreign bank is in 2nd or 1st rank or the same bank is also in 1st rank.
When I took out my last loan, I had a bunch of offers from other banks with me, which made the bank lower the already quite decent interest rate a bit more. This is no longer possible due to the construction, but at least for such a conversation I need to know exactly what the standard is, etc.
 

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