Savings beginner with questions about the plausibility of the "rough" plan

  • Erstellt am 2015-12-27 15:23:07

brotpeter

2016-02-11 21:36:39
  • #1
I would also recommend everyone to approach the matter with equity (25%+). The reason is actually quite simple: What I have already "paid" I don't have to pay back to anyone later. Who can say today what things will look like in 10 years? Regardless of how interest rates or the economic situation look ... maybe one gets sick and can no longer keep the property? Or divorce? (rumor has it relationships don’t last forever) Or has to change jobs? Then at least you get the money back more or less after you have paid the bank... (as Saruss already wrote) On the other hand, of course, the arguments about rising construction costs / higher living quality / etc. cannot be denied! In the end, everyone has to decide for themselves what risk they want to take. Best regards
 

Saruss

2016-02-11 22:07:09
  • #2
Then please be a bit careful with your assumptions. A lot of this reads as if you have taken a strong "side" and are defending this position absolutely. In my opinion, quality of life is not so low in an apartment in a good location either, especially if you don’t have children yet and are just settling into your profession. The difference is whether you are "totally screwed" in case of problems because you get less money from selling the house than you owe; whether the difference is large enough for personal bankruptcy or not, you then have many years (5+) without money or quality of life. And if you have children then, you can’t offer anything to them or yourself anymore. With the equity accumulation phase, you have completely eliminated this risk. That is the difference with being able to "sleep well," not that you fundamentally have debt. This protection is not expensive at all – it is my invested equity; thus, even a distress sale is absolutely risk-free (okay, not everyone has more than 50% equity, but that much isn’t necessarily needed). In my case, I can easily buy 2 small apartments in a distress sale at current market values since my house is (thanks to special repayments) already "financed" at less than half its value. And to disappoint you with your assumptions (I don’t know why it "seems" that way….), I also have one account for each of my children with substantial sums. I cannot recall having made any remark about that – on the contrary, I wrote that I now pay less credit than I used to save, so – I can still save and build reserves despite credit (and if "saving for a car" also means working towards five-figure sums at today’s prices....).
 

Bieber0815

2016-02-11 22:37:15
  • #3
That's exactly the question! And the more equity you put in, the higher the likelihood that it will "work out." Do you understand? And, as I said, that's why you don't wait for the foreclosure but look for solutions early on when problems arise. Up to and including a voluntary sale.
 

Vanben

2016-02-11 22:48:37
  • #4
If you want to put it that way, I am currently actually "taking sides." Isn’t that a prerequisite for being able to discuss?

I have calculated to what extent long saving phases for equity pay off and have found that it is currently not worthwhile to first save the frequently touted 20% or more equity here. Those who have it anyway will at least be able to invest it securely and quite profitably in the house, but those who first have to save for it apparently put themselves at a financial disadvantage.

I can understand the concern about a possible personal bankruptcy, but you don’t need a 70% loan-to-value ratio because of that. Financially speaking, you come out better with a personal bankruptcy in the end anyway, since the bank would have to bear the (main) burdens. But I do understand the psychological effect, as well as the associated loss of quality of life, of course. However, securing oneself in the form of equity that is first saved up is indeed very costly (construction/real estate prices rise, capital is poorly interest-bearing, loan interest rates could increase, you continue paying rent, etc.). Just because you would have money left over in the end doesn’t mean you didn’t have to bear losses.

And briefly on my "assumption" (by the way, it is also not very polite to continuously accuse the other party of making it up):



It may be that you differentiate more between "reserves for driving license," "study fund," and "horrendous teen costs," but you honestly can’t read that out there. So please excuse me if in that case I wrongly suspected you of "not forming any reserves." But that does not change my argument: You have indirectly spent money to insure against "forced sale" that you’re currently missing elsewhere, otherwise you would, for example, pay for the car in cash and not save for it, right?

Please don’t misunderstand me; it is not about accusing you of supposed "mistakes." My point is that longer saving phases for 20% or more equity don’t pay off for today’s prospective buyers, as they lose out. Anyone who does so anyway objectively must have reasons other than their own financial interests, and I would like to hear these reasons. You have named personal bankruptcy (as lastdrop also did) as one, which at least argues against 110% financing, but in my opinion doesn’t necessarily argue for 80% or even 60% and less.

PS: I just noticed that you are a math whiz by profession. Have I made a serious calculation error somewhere and am now discussing based on false premises?

Yes, of course I understand that. But in the post you quoted from me, I also wrote that it’s not about existing capital, but about the question of whether you first save it up... I have already written quite a bit about that to Saruss here in the post.
 

Saruss

2016-02-11 23:31:11
  • #5

Only to a limited extent, as long as you maintain your objectivity.


Your calculations are fine with your assumptions. However, these assumptions are very closely tied to the current situation, so numerically not stable—the calculated optimal equity ratio (optimal exclusively in terms of money—all other factors like security, risk, quality of life are difficult to calculate) fluctuates significantly with only small changes in your assumptions. So everyone has to look carefully at their own situation (for example, I still have old savings contracts with over 4% interest)—and also consider all non-monetary arguments. By the way, I consider these more important than a few possible percentage points plus or minus.


With personal bankruptcy, it depends on the amounts (debts) whether it "pays off" or is feasible or not. You definitely cannot say that in such general terms. The protection certainly costs a bit, but by no means as much as you suggest. Nowadays, everyone is somehow insured (yes, I also have my house and my life insured), and collecting equity could be seen as insurance, too. Especially since no one has a functioning crystal ball for the future. For example, it could also be that in 6-7 years, with rising interest rates, many people who built without equity will have problems with follow-up financing, and houses will be quite cheap. Lucky is the one who then has equity and can strike. Who knows? Or maybe something else happens? You only know for sure what would have been financially better afterward!


It is especially about speculations that did not concern the topic itself, but for example my reserves and so on (+ more about me and Steffen). And you absolutely made those up ("suspected"); they were even contrary to what we wrote. And demanding restraint there, I consider the polite way.


I have directly spent money and thus have definitely protected myself against a "forced sale." But that money is not missing. It is tied up in the house (I did indulge myself a bit during construction and the landscaping) for quality of life. My car is still rust-free and in great condition. So I keep saving. And when I replace it, I don’t have to spend all the money on a car. I bought my wife a new one last year because the old one didn’t want to cooperate anymore. That was possible because I had so much equity that after building the house, I still had enough money left for it (so I "hid" a bit from the banks—you have to use your equity primarily). With less equity, I would have had to finance the car, and that would definitely have been more expensive overall. Another argument is, of course, flexibility, also during construction. You don’t have to constantly chase bills, approvals, and payment requests, can fairly reliably get the early payment discount (sometimes more by negotiating), don’t have to turn every euro, collect every hardware store bill for own work, and so on. You can also pay some things in cash to the craftsmen.



That’s also not how I understand you, even though some of your suspicions didn’t add value to the objective consideration. I still don’t believe I did anything "wrong." Rather, building might have resulted in a less optimal house in a less optimal location because of my family planning/career. See above, the "calculation" or assumptions are not generally valid but special examples. We have objectively explained many reasons to you. I’ll say quite clearly: money is not everything here either (if it were just about calculations, nobody would build a house). I rate many risks higher here (compared to €€€). I believe others do so, too—otherwise, there would be no insurance.



The tenor here is not 50% equity but 25%-30% equity compared to "none."[/QUOTE]
 

Steffen80

2016-02-11 23:34:53
  • #6
Vanben considers this purely economically and he does not seem to be wrong. However, he ignores the factors of risk protection. I would be interested to know at what amount of the monthly savings rate the calculation flips? As soon as it exceeds the inflation of the [Baukasten]? Is it really that simple?
 

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