Heating system, collectors, insulation, price

Hello bangolo,

controlled apartment ventilation should definitely be there.

Why is that, for a house (Energy Saving Ordinance 2007) that already ventilates too much, the system can't prevent that?

What do geothermal collectors have to do with building component activation?
They are located outside the building, or are you referring to cooling?

Hybrid collectors are not sophisticated, but inefficient, the combination lowers the efficiency of both subsystems (thermal and photovoltaic).

I consider the information on the homepage "Heating Engineering Office - Heating" pure marketing.

It is suggested here that the heating load of a building would not play a role, which is incorrect.
Quote from the slogan:
A particularly energy-saving construction of the building is not required, it only needs to comply with the valid thermal protection ordinance.

It is further suggested that the collectors warm the buffer tank for heating, which is not possible in our latitudes, currently the yield is about 14%.
Quote from the slogan:
The solar collectors mainly charge and supply heat to the buffer tank.

Not the heating system but the thermal insulation is the focus.
If you reverse this principle, you would always have bought a far too large heating system. Neither the investment nor the operating and maintenance costs would be necessary.

Best regards

Hello Parcus,

I replied to spacecowboy's posting

We have received from the BU a "Certificate of energy-saving thermal insulation and energy-saving building systems according to the Energy Saving Ordinance 2009."

It does not say anything about the Energy Saving Ordinance 2007, that's why I wrote I would use controlled apartment ventilation.

What do geothermal collectors have to do with activated building components? They are outside the building, aren't they, or are you referring to cooling?

Maybe you didn't read the article properly. The heat gained from the solar system in summer is stored in ceilings, walls, and foundations. If that is not sufficient as a heat storage, additional earth collectors are installed and the soil is basically used as a long-term storage. In winter, this stored heat is retrieved again via a heat pump. Of course, you can also switch the heat pump and cool with the stored heat in summer. There is a similar system from Consolar (I’ll withhold the link) where they do this with an ice storage installed in the ground.

Hybrid collectors are not noble but inefficient; the combination reduces the efficiency of both subsystems (thermal and photovoltaic).

The efficiency is not reduced, but the available area is. Of course, you can also install photovoltaic modules in addition to the thermal solar collectors, as is stated in the article about the immosolar system.

I consider the information on the homepage "Heizung Ingenieurbüro - Heizen" pure marketing.

Well, first of all, nothing is sold on the page. There is information about new technologies and products mostly from heating technology. What's the problem?

Here it is suggested that the heating load of a building does not matter, which is false.
Quote of the slogan:
A particularly energy-saving construction of the building is not required, the valid thermal insulation ordinance only needs to be complied with.

It clearly says that the valid thermal insulation ordinance must be complied with, where does it say that the heating load does not matter?

It is further suggested that the collectors heat the buffer storage for the heating, which is not possible in our latitudes; currently the yield is about 14%.
Quote of the slogan:
The buffer storage is primarily loaded and supplied with heat by the solar collectors.

Optimally designed solar systems with suitable buildings and appropriate heating technology achieve up to 30% coverage rate. But that is not the point here at all. The sentence simply states that the buffer storage is charged first and then the activated building components and/or the soil. This is of course also sensible, because this way I can use high temperatures coming from the solar system nicely.

Not the heating system but the thermal insulation is the focus.
If you turn this principle around, you would have always bought a heating system that is far too large. Neither the investment nor the operating and maintenance costs would be necessary.

I don't understand, the sentence is completely clear—the better the insulation, the smaller the heating system can be. Otherwise, passive houses or plus energy houses would be totally pointless.

I am a bit surprised anyway, as a specialist in ecological building, you should like such a system, 100% solar energy, year-round temperatures for the heat pump of 15 to 20 degrees, of course it is a high-end system which certainly is not cheap.

Hello bangolo,

I question the ground collector under building component activation, as the ground collector is not a component. In building component activation, we certainly agree that it concerns existing ceilings and walls with small temperature differences to the room. Or insulated stores with higher temperature gradients to the room, which however release heat in a controlled manner. The RUD. OTTO MEYER-ENVIRONMENT FOUNDATION offers a good overview in "Thermal Building Component Activation." I do not consider an external ground collector adequate here, as it cannot store heat against its ambient temperature for long. In addition, heat output cannot be controlled like with an insulated store, apart from the high temperature difference to the room. Earthship aside, where the earth becomes a storage for the wall.

Maybe we just talked past each other.

Regarding hybrid collectors, the association of solar manufacturers at this year’s Renewable Energy Education Fair in Gelsenkirchen was of the opinion that this technology is currently not efficient. The cheaper solar thermal systems affect the performance of photovoltaic modules so strongly through their temperatures that these no longer generate returns after the feed-in tariff. However, the latter come with higher investment costs.

It clearly says that the valid thermal insulation ordinance must be complied with, where does it say that the heating load does not matter

Quote from homepage

A particularly energy-saving construction of the building is not required

However, this results in the heating load, independently of the energy saving ordinance, which only regulates the minimum requirement.

Optimally designed solar systems with appropriate buildings and corresponding heating technology achieve up to 30% coverage.

I am happy to learn more, so please provide a link.

Best regards

Hello Parcus,

I think we are really talking past each other here. The system is about storing the heat I gain in summer with the solar system for use in winter. The term component activation is actually not 100% correct here, let's call it long-term solar storage. That’s why it’s not a problem if the soil has heat losses, the heat is there anyway, generated by the solar system, so where to put it — possibly through a ground collector into the soil and on the other hand into the building components.

By the way, I see a much bigger problem here, especially with ceilings or walls, I can’t heat them infinitely in summer, otherwise I would have to forcibly cool the rooms. That’s why the manufacturer mainly uses foundations and walls of non-living rooms, ideally basements and such as heat storage. Again, here’s a problem, you heat up the basement.

Now it gets even worse, various scientific studies actually say that solar long-term storage doesn't work in our latitudes, mainly because of the heat losses. But this is about buffer storage, there I agree. But in this system configuration, the energy gained in summer is used in winter with the heat pump.

Please don’t take sentences out of context

A particularly energy-saving design of the building is not required here, it only needs to comply with the valid thermal insulation regulations.

That sentence was actually one reason why I looked more closely at this problem. Unfortunately, my house does not meet any thermal insulation regulations; it dates from 1898 and has a sandstone exterior wall, not a cladding but an 80 cm thick natural sandstone wall. The house also has windows with stucco framing. Now I naturally have been looking for solutions on how to do something about saving energy. Only the Immosolar people waved me off because I simply need too high flow temperatures. It’s currently a low-temperature gas heating system 75/55 with panel radiators. I also have enough roof area and everything nicely facing southwest.

I can’t give you a link to such a heating system; for that, you would need a system that is monitored with measurements over several years so that it really has significance; otherwise, I can only rely on manufacturers’ information.

But one thing is clear, especially with solar systems or heat pumps, you have to calculate very precisely before you can finally say it’s worth it.