Finding tiles from other manufacturers / sample selection for builders

Hello,

Does anyone have experience with this topic? Is it correct that the construction company is allowed to act this way? After all, it is nowhere written that I MUST take tiles and sanitaryware from the sampling companies.

It is also certainly not in your BB/your contract that you can have the tiles or another trade carried out by an external company. EL is always possible and cannot be excluded either.

You chose a general contractor because you liked their offer; in my opinion, it was cheaper than comparable offers. Now you want to lower the offer again at a point that is incomprehensible to you; one can never understand clients.

Remove the tile trade, try to award it cheaper elsewhere or – better yet – carry it out in EL. Only then will you really save money, and the tiresome question of warranty, which fills entire courtrooms, is also off the table.

Kind regards

Construction expert, it always depends on the offer. If for services that are included in the house price according to BB, the individual prices for the various trades are not separately indicated in advance, and they rarely are, then the BU can practically credit the subsequent removal of individual trades at its discretion (as long as it is not immoral).

Hello,

Construction expert, it always depends on the offer. If the individual prices for the various trades for services that are included in the house price according to the BB are not separately stated in advance, and they rarely are, then the builder is practically free to credit the subcontractor when individual trades are subsequently removed (as long as it is not immoral).

I also do not name individual trade prices, as this would be equivalent to disclosing my calculation. Instead, I describe exactly - to stay on topic - up to what material price tiles can be purchased; it is also not uncommon for builders to want an offer for, for example, tiles throughout the entire ground floor beyond the BB. If no price is stated in the additional offer, how is the builder supposed to decide whether these services are worth the offer price to him? And if he buys this additional service but cancels it again after signing the contract, he will be credited exactly this price again.

With this approach, I am in good company; there are more reputable providers than this forum sometimes seems to reflect here.

Kind regards

Hello Homebuilder,

Please don’t take it personally, construction expert, but I don’t understand why BU shun a comprehensible invoice like the devil shuns holy water. This lack of transparency is what contributes to the partly bad reputation of the industry.

Why should I react like that?

No, it’s not because of the “lack of transparency” you criticized – it’s, as always, a mix of many things. The local and global market economy reacts to the needs of the individual; here and there you have "those kinds" and "those kinds." There are companies that do not disclose their calculations (by the way, the entire automotive industry doesn’t either), there are companies whose maxim is the sale of individual trades, and there are companies that have fixed on this dreadful “stinginess is cool” mentality.

Why do you disclose your calculation when you name the prices of the individual trades? That doesn’t mean you reveal your purchase prices.

Of course, that would happen; what you write here in the forum does not suggest that you are a naïve person – so please don’t start with that now!

I work in the automotive industry and when I issue an invoice, it must be comprehensible and verifiable. I can’t just write “this and that was done = so much.”

You’re mixing apples and oranges; Perlemann already gave an example in response to your statement. When I buy a new vehicle, regardless of the brand, neither the manufacturer nor the dealer disclose to me how much, for example, the headlights from Xella cost or what the labor cost portion of the headlights is, right? If I then take my car in for a service, the situation looks different. The servicing company is obliged to itemize the exact costs and enable me as the customer to verify the individual items on the invoice…

With BUs it’s always like this: house type XY = price. Services according to the construction service description. Done.

…It’s no different with house building. The reputable providers submit an offer to the potential builder for a piece of house, built according to the DIN standards valid at the time of purchase. Furthermore, they explain to their customer using their BB which materials (for example Gira or Busch-Jäger in electrical work, material value of tile work, etc.) are included in their offer price. If the customer then purchases additional services, he will receive an offer price for those, which he can accept or decline. If he buys and later wants to cancel, that offer price will be credited back.

However, they conveniently remain silent about how they calculate that price.

That’s how the entire global economy works; this “trade secret” is the key to their survival, provided they operate according to commercial practices on the market. Ask P & C how much labor is in their T-shirts, suits, or sweaters, or Apple what the speaker in their iPhone costs.

At least as long as no legal dispute is pending, where it must then be proven with evidence how the price was calculated.

Unfortunately, this statement also belongs in the category of “hearsay,” sorry. Before the court, no BU has to disclose their calculation; in case of doubt, they do have to justify how much actual service—in euros—they have provided, because only this will be recognized by the court—if the legal requirements are met; if they’re lucky. Unfortunately, in recent years German courts tend to work towards a settlement; I guess that’s because every fool thinks he has to sue – which overloads all courts.

This is therefore the reason why we and many of our competitors no longer take the legal route. It makes no sense to chase bad money with good money; on the other hand, it encourages some contemporaries’ mentality to keep a little more and a little more of the pie. Look around this forum and you’ll have to agree with me; the latest example of “sunny tempers” is the question why the user has to pay his architect. No, of course not, the architect’s delivered service doesn’t have to be paid for… That also answers your unspoken question about the black sheep: “Like always attracts like” – the global market is prepared for that as well.

Best regards

Hello Perlenmann,

But I will also have that with the tiles soon. I'm curious. We have lowered to 20€/m², but all bathrooms are tiled up to the ceiling all around. However, we only want the wet areas tiled, not the rest, with different tiles for that. I'm curious about that too.

If nothing fundamental has changed in your provider's company in recent years, you will be credited for the untiled part of the tiles and can use that to buy higher quality or choose a different installation method or, depending on the tile proportion in the house, even both

Kind regards

Construction expert, I think we are talking past each other.

When I say I would like to have the prices of the individual trades of the house, that does not mean I want to know what margin you have on which stone, which tiles, and which craftsman, but I want to know what the individual services are worth.
Where is the problem in saying the house costs, for example, 250,000 EUR, of which so much is allocated to:

- foundation slab
- shell construction
- screed
- interior finishing
- tiles
- sanitary
- etc.

Do you understand what I mean? I am not interested in purchase prices, but rather what the trade is ultimately worth.
That way, it would be clear from the outset what I get credited if I want to carry out a trade in EGL.
For example, if I want to do the tiles myself and they are initially budgeted at 3,000 for my house, I get credited for that. But since exactly that does not exist, because the trade is included in the fixed price, bargaining begins when it comes to execution in EGL. The builder then estimates less for a trade than it is actually worth, and a dispute is inevitable.

By the way, in my comparison, I never said it was about selling cars. I was actually talking about the execution of craftwork on a vehicle.
And if I have it for inspection + additional work, I cannot just write down a fixed price, but must show what the individual jobs and materials cost, i.e., what the individual services are worth.
Since building a house is undoubtedly also a craft service, there should be parallels here.

To get to your example with P&C: of course, they will not tell me how the price of the T-shirt is made up, and I am not interested in that either.
But if I buy a complete men's outfit there, they do tell me what pants, jacket, and shirt cost.

If I buy a complete house, no one tells me what shell construction, doors, and windows cost, as I said, not purchase prices but the value of the completed service.

And the more I have to deal with the topic, the clearer it becomes to me why that is.
Because that would bring many house offers to an end in advance, and a quick calculation would already show that the payment schedule often provided for in the construction contract is designed to the disadvantage of the builder, even though all builders and prefabricated house providers know full well that according to the Building Code or VOB (where applicable), they have to advance payments.
With non-transparent fixed-price offers and corresponding payment schedules, it is easy to turn the tables and send the builder into advance payments without him noticing.

Don’t get me wrong, construction expert. I am not saying that everyone does this, but during the planning phase for building, I have read enough offers, construction contracts, and payment schedules. Both from smaller and well-known providers, and several of them struck me where the payment schedule did not fit the actual construction status or the value of the completed work. If you asked questions like how much a shell construction is worth and whether perhaps 60% of the house price is a bit much for that, the evasive maneuvering started immediately and they tried to wriggle out like an eel...