Is a bullet loan and ETF currently worth considering?

  • Erstellt am 2019-07-21 20:26:53

RotorMotor

2019-07-23 15:10:19
  • #1


Basically, I agree with you, but with a lower equity contribution, the interest rate on the entire loan usually increases. This means that you not only have a high risk but also initially high costs, which you have to calculate precisely.
 

Milo3

2019-07-23 15:48:17
  • #2


Why? The goal here is: For example, a bullet loan of 300k with 1.6% interest = 4800€ interest p.a. At the same time, investing in an ETF/fund in the hope that it yields more interest. Continuing with the calculation: 2000€ savings rate per month = 24k, with 4% = 960€ before taxes... Where is the gain here? One could prefer building savings to this model, but during the term you have neither the security of returns (cost average effect, blah blah) nor a cheap loan at the end. With an annuity loan, your interest debt decreases year by year and you can achieve a higher return with special repayments than through your ETF/fund story. However, if the OP has 200k in cash, then it might actually be worth considering this model.
 

Musketier

2019-07-24 10:15:04
  • #3
Simplified example

Loan acquisition 01.01.2019 300K€

31.01.2019
Interest (1.6%) January 375€
Annuity 1000€
Loan balance 299,375.00€

28.02.2019
Interest (1.6%) February 374.21€
Annuity 1000€
Loan balance 298,749.21€

.
.
.
31.12.2019
Interest (1.6%) December 366.35€
Annuity 1000€
Loan balance 292,448.22€
_____________________________________________________________________________________

The same now for the [TA Loan]:

31.01.2019
Interest (1.6%) January 375€
Annuity 375€
Loan balance 300,000.00€
.
.
.
31.12.2019
Interest (1.6%) December 375.00€
Annuity 375€
Loan balance 300,000.00€
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ETF
31.01.2019
Net return (5%) January 0€
Deposit 625€
Portfolio balance 625.00€

28.02.2019
Net return (5%) February 2.60€
Deposit 625€
Portfolio balance 1,252.60€
.
.
.
31.12.2019
Net return (5%) December 29.25€
Deposit 625€
Portfolio balance 7,674.28€

Netted result from portfolio value and [TA Loan] is a balance of 292,325.71€ and thus 122.51€ less remaining debt. Over 10 years, a benefit of just over 16K€ results for the [TA Loan].
 

Milo3

2019-07-24 18:09:43
  • #4


Maybe you should also base it on 6%, then the calculation is even better. By the way, the stock market is not a one-way street... if you had now come up with a breakeven interest rate, the calculation would be quite agreeable. Incidentally, I continue to criticize this construct.
 

Musketier

2019-07-25 09:53:20
  • #5
Referring now to the interest rate from an example calculation where I wanted to show you that your calculation is completely wrong is just ridiculous. You have to calculate with something, and 5% is not that unreasonable. But it doesn’t even matter as long as the after-tax return is above 1.6%*. I could have also calculated with 2% or 3%. The result that the [TA loan with ETF] would have outperformed the annuity loan would be the same, only the difference would be different.

*deviating from the simplified example, a note on this: Due to the intra-year compound interest effect on the annuity loan, the break-even point should not be exactly at 1.6%, but somewhere 0.01 to 0.02% above that.

Of course, the stock market is not a one-way street and it’s all risky, and it’s certainly not a financing method one can recommend as standard. Exactly for this reason, I also said above that it’s nonsense to do this if the financing is already maxed out. But if, as asked by the [TE], the loan is already secured anyway and it is only about €50,000, then you can certainly take the risk. If you look at the return triangle of the DAX, for example over 10 years, then with over a 90% probability you would have easily beaten the 1.6%, and the after-tax return of 5% that I indicated above would have been reached at least 80% of the time. In 15 years you would have always beaten the 1.6%. Of course, this is no guarantee for the future, but if you don’t want to be exposed to any risks, then you shouldn’t go out into the street anymore.

PS: In case someone recalculates, I just realized that I have even positioned the annuity loan better. I calculated with 1.5% instead of 1.6%. The difference after 10 years would therefore not be €16,000 but €19,000. By comparison, with a 3% after-tax return of the ETF, the advantage would still be over €9,000.
 

Milo3

2019-07-25 15:46:11
  • #6


No and again no. What you say may be mathematically correct. I don’t have the patience to deal with it now. The break-even in this case happens at the earliest in the last 2-3 years. By the way, looking at the last 10 years of the DAX is not very conclusive. But that doesn’t matter now. 50k is a manageable sum for many here. If that is also the case for the OP and he accepts all associated risks, then he can do it that way. He must be aware that he is getting a cheap annuity loan with a fixed interest rate. A long-lasting sideways movement or bad performance in the last 2 years, then that’s it with the 9k profit. That quickly turns into a 10k loss.
 

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