Which is more sensible: heat pump or insulation?

Thank you for the tip, I looked into it, but the "affordable" units are all in the low 5kW range, with which I can't get by in 120m².

Why not? I manage just fine. And many others in old buildings as well.

Most of the heat from the underfloor heating rises upwards due to thermics

LOL - you believe that.

Thank you for the tip, I looked into it, but the "affordable" units are all in the low 5kW range,

And this will be cheaper and above all better with Chinese goods from Aliexpress? Keep dreaming.

I use the basement rooms and am glad that they are sufficiently tempered without additional heating installation required!

Expensive basement heating...

The 0.21 polyurethane is the 6cm value from the company Boegerfassaden (insulation cladding with clinker design)

Where should the value come from with PUR? The best 0.23 PUR (which is aluminum laminated - fleece has worse values) gave me a U-value of only 0.36 at 6cm thickness. Boegerfassaden can't work magic with PUR either. The 0.21 is practically unattainable unless you use 100mm.

Also thanks for the calculator program tips, which I checked out, unfortunately they all only calculate the "one U-value" and I couldn't determine the combination of 2 values (insulation U1 0.35 // + insulation U2 0.21).

You can simulate the entire wall construction. By the way, this is not done with U-values but with the WLGs of the building materials. And then you end up with normal PUR like from Boeger at a WLG 27. You need 125mm to get a U-value of 0.21.

In the neighborhood, someone applied this insulation and told me that he saves about 250 liters of oil (~15%) per year on his 100m² house.

The insulating effect of 60mm is really outdated. You can't expect much from it. Especially if the rest of the house doesn't fit. It's like your basement. Either heat with a proper heating system (and within the thermal envelope) or outside the thermal envelope and thus insulate the basement ceiling. It doesn't get really cold in the basement anyway. Use a fan heater if needed. What you do is senseless energy waste. You need a proper plan and not mumbo jumbo and hearsay.

In the neighborhood, someone applied this insulation and told me that he saves about 250 liters of oil (~15%) per year on his 100m² house. Roughly extrapolated to my house, I come to just over 200,- savings per year. So you can see in practice the savings quoted by the sellers of insulation should also be taken with a grain of salt.

As I said, you need a proper plan. In my 120sqm house, I have a heat pump with underfloor heating, the tenant above me still has the old oil heating with radiators. Currently, she will have about 2 to 2.5 times my heating costs. And that in the same house. Without external insulation. But she only heats 80sqm. Only the heating type is different.

The tip about the energy consultant is certainly not to be dismissed, but I had experiences in conversations quite some time ago that made me a “consultation-resistant”!
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de facto “pushers” who can nicely dramatize problems, want to make plans, measure the boiler room, etc. to justify the consultation effort in order to then be able to make corresponding offers, which of course are mostly designed company-specifically for commission reasons.
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Heat pump good for the environment but unfortunately did not positively influence my heating costs that much (small additional remark: you can also relatively easily import heat pumps from China yourself – not everything from the Far East is junk, you just have to put in some effort and the parts are surprisingly cheaper, so you can do without a subsidy – if you get one at all.)
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As I said, consultation-resistant, since all experts warned me. But proven in practice!
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Installing exterior insulation. After research, the (price/performance) thickness of 6 cm is sensible

I have crossed photovoltaic off my list after thorough research and comparison with an acquaintance. I am at 53° northern latitude and my gable roof faces west! Even our top guru from TU Berlin (Quaschning lecture can be watched on YouTube) raised a warning finger there
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Wish for everyone who has a heat pump -> may the coming winters remain warm
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Fortunately, I don’t have a new building but an existing one. Our world-saving “legislators”
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China ... there are parts with up to 80°! Flow temperature. I am skeptical about that too and am currently corresponding.
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Contrary to the then propagated opinion considered self-evident, no special insulation was planned. Contrary to the specialists’ opinion, it has proven itself for years. The heat from the underfloor heating mostly goes upward due to thermics and I do not consider the losses downward as a loss, but as a gain.
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The 0.21 polyurethane corresponds to the 6 cm value of the company Boegerfassaden (insulation cladding with brick design).
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So in practice, the savings mentioned by sellers for insulation should also be taken with caution.
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Research how transport costs for heat pump-China "free" Germany are.

You have already really gotten into the topic, gathered your own practical experiences, and developed the necessary degree of mistrust toward so-called consultants, specialists, and sellers (unless they come from China). That will surely result in a concept that fits you well. You really couldn’t do it better.

Yes, thanks for the answers..... there is nothing left but to actually take it all in. The problem is that many, because they don’t have the time, rely on the "experts." These believe everything they are usually told in the advanced training courses (energy consultants) etc. For me, e-consultants have already gone door to door offering "free" advice. The advice to replace the old refrigerator with an AAA++ device to save electricity was now also classified as not to be recommended by Stiftung Warentest. (Not environment, only money!) If nothing can be too expensive for the environment .... well then okay..... maybe I’d rather invest in some real stocks.............;) As TmMike_2 has already correctly recognized, my priority naturally lies purely on the economic side! When it comes to pros and cons about CO2 and saving the world, as well as leading by example, worldviews diverge, whose discussion would of course go too far here. (As a note, it should not go unmentioned that Siemens is currently building a coal power plant in Poland! This does not mean that we continue as before, but in 10 years I also don’t want to live as an old man in Lausitz and be the last to turn off the lights when the last unemployed have emigrated to Sicily.) We also get nuclear power from France, and I will pay for the new environment if I were to build a new building in 3 years with the mandatory photovoltaic! whose use is not always the best thing! Let’s see how opinions will turn with rising costs in a few years. Unfortunately, many things can no longer be clearly classified because of interest groups. By the way, in photovoltaic consulting, many facts such as the deterioration of elements due to aging, cleaning with fully demineralized water due to dirt, changes in the feed-in conditions of electricity providers (see the decline in recent years), etc., are also gladly left out when calculating amortization. (The alternative, own storage and its costs, can only be classified as realistic by fantasy-prone people. Even better now is the own hydrogen production. Not everything that is possible is also reasonable. (at least for the time being!)) My contacts with the "well-known" company, which rents out the systems on a leasing basis, ended with me being told, after I pressed hard, that the parts could not be installed on my roof for technical reasons anyway. At first, when I gave them all the data, they did not notice. So some things get resolved when you don’t let yourself be steamrolled. (That’s what I meant above by "pushy mentality.") Again as a reminder, the tip I posted (Prof Quaschning FU-Berlin) – I believe posting a link is not allowed here – on the subject of photovoltaic should definitely be viewed by interested parties before making a decision. Regarding my basement heating also as a note. Heat rises, that is a physical fact. I do not see my losses due to the poor insulation EG/basement as a loss, since for the reasons mentioned I do not want a cold basement. From years of experience, I can say that 70% goes to the EG and the 30% downward are basically “basement ceiling heating.” In my eyes, that is not a loss. I will also take another look at the posted Panasonic parts – these are also heavily discounted parts! But okay, I am still waiting for the shipping costs, which China-Ali does not directly state, so I had to communicate directly with the manufacturers. (Luckily English is a world language, since my Mandarin skills are probably somewhat lacking :cool:) To sum up, I can say that the total costs for insulation including installation (no matter what material is used) are not in proportion to the savings (oil/money), which is why I am not insulating for now but living with my poor old Ytong value (25cm). New buildings are now only possible with 36cm. Who knows what new things will be on the market in 10-15 years – of course more expensive. Heat pumps are not dead yet if the costs were well below the usually offered 15,000,-. Let’s see if it can be cheaper. About 8 years ago I already wanted to buy a small combined heat and power plant from Viessmann. With it, I could have generated heating and electricity myself. Now 8 years later, the parts with the Stirling engine are no longer in the program! Back then it was advertised as the nonplus ultra. I was somewhat suspicious of the Stirling engine, which is why I did not go for it – luckily. I’m just going down to the basement now to manually adjust the heating because the outside sensor is on the north wall, but we had sun all day today and it’s a bit too warm inside. So much for the super controls. Thinking along is sometimes better than relying on technology...................... Regards from the skeptic

... When it comes to the pros and cons of CO2 and saving the world, as well as leading by good example, worldviews diverge, whose discussion would of course go too far here.

They could have just left it at that. Lots of opinion, few facts.

As already correctly recognized by TmMike_2, my priority is of course purely on the economic side !

The attitude is OK and certainly widespread. Whether it is "natural" I doubt.

In summary, I can say that the total costs for insulation including installation (no matter which material is used) are not in proportion to the savings (oil/money), which is why I am not insulating for now but living with my poor old Ytong value (25cm).

This makes the demand for higher prices for oil and gas understandable.

By the way, in photovoltaic consulting, many facts such as the decline of the elements due to aging, cleaning with fully desalinated water because of dirt, changes in the buyback conditions of electricity providers (see the decrease in recent years), etc., are also gladly swept under the rug in the amortization planning.

Sure, there are only very few providers who offer water harvested from a virgin at full moon for cleaning. What nonsense you let yourself be told and spread here. The first cleaning, which happens extremely regularly, is called rain. After that comes the garden hose and scrubber. You can forget the rest. Buyback conditions from electricity providers is an even bigger nonsense. You get a fixed feed-in tariff for 20 years. Nothing changes after installation at all.
That the remuneration is reduced is something different. For that, the modules have also become cheaper in price.

Decline of the elements due to aging

That is also manageable. You already get guarantees for almost 90% of the performance for 15-20 years. Within the framework of a 70% rule also still bearable.

==> Conclusion photovoltaics: You have zero clue, sorry...

My contacts with the "well-known" company that sells the systems on a leasing basis for rent

There is, for example, a separate thread about that. Good business for lessors – but that is of course clear and always the case with leasing.

Regarding my cellar heating also as a note. Heat rises, that is a physical fact. I do not see my losses through the lack of insulation ground floor/cellar as a loss, since for the reasons mentioned I don’t want to have a cold cellar.

Physics is not your strength, is it?
Heat does not rise. Warm air does. In a solid body, heat conduction takes place. It is directionless or spreads in all directions. Hence also 50% in the direction of your cellar – that’s why there is insulation under the screed (if you have it) to stop heat conduction.
You can look at it however you want, but even you can’t cheat physical principles. Cold is, by the way, a relative assessment. I prefer to create warmth in the cellar when needed, for example by turning on the infrared heater. That is much more economical – and that’s what matters to you – than distributing heat uselessly.

I will also take another look at the posted Panasonic parts – these are also heavily discounted parts! But okay, I’m still waiting for the shipping costs, which China-Ali does not specify directly, so I had to communicate directly with the manufacturers. (Luckily English is the world language, as my Mandarin skills are probably somewhat lacking:cool:)

Isn’t it normal that the RRP is only a recommendation? You will find that with any heating system.
However, I would rather buy a renowned Geisha than "China junk." With Panasonic, you just call customer service and that’s it. Nobody comes from China. But fine. Those who buy cheap usually buy twice.

In summary, I can say that the total costs for insulation including installation (regardless of what material is used) are not in proportion to the savings (oil/money).

And how exactly did you calculate that? I guess you rolled dice or played rock-paper-scissors. But professionally, calculation-wise, energetically, you sadly have no clue.

Heat pump is not dead yet if the costs were well below the mostly offered 15,000 euros.

What is included in the €15k? What does "mostly offered" mean?

New construction is now only possible with 36 cm.

Is that so? Who says that? Which brick? With or without ETICS? Timber frame?

I am just going into the cellar now to manually adjust the heating because the outdoor sensor is on the north wall, but we had sun all day and it is a bit too warm inside.

Such a pity that you live in an area where the sun shines on the north wall all day. Also annoying that at 11 p.m. you have to turn down the heating because it was too warm during the day (and the sun was only away for six hours) and it doesn’t cool off at night either. So tomorrow at noon the heating goes up again because it froze the night before. Really cool!

Regards from the skeptic

Should have been "Regards from the I’m a barstool talker." You really need to seriously engage with the topics. You can hardly read this nonsense without falling off your chair.