The bank may want a construction service description despite individual subcontract awarding

As an emergency solution, that also works. I meant: if you copy all the tender documents together (not the bids, since those are already the responses to them) and put a table of contents in front, you basically have all the chapters of a construction specification, just in different fonts or something, but whatever.

You actually can’t seriously do a tender like that. The core of a tender is a hard (i.e. clearly defined) and uniform standard for all bidders. Only then can you compare.
An award based on the method "ask only one bidder per trade and if together they don’t exceed the budget, then that’s good enough" is far, far from a proper tender.

By the way, then they simply share the budget like a cartel ;-)

If you just send craftsmen a set of drawings saying, "look, this will be my house, what do you think should be done," then the electrician with two sockets per room is cheaper than the one with four. That works too, but it hurts even just to imagine it :-(

I know what you mean and yes, in the classical sense there is no tender. Around here there are exactly 1-2 well-known providers for some trades, e.g. plumbing including building services or structural shell. So you ask exactly that one provider or the other for a quote and negotiate if it seems too high.

Not every offer is just accepted by us either, but optimized and renegotiated.

Budget-wise, we’re also on plan with the upgrading of the offers :)

You described it nicely as a cartel that divides the budget. That seems like a fitting description.

On the subject of electrical planning: Also a fitting example. Here we received a “standard offer,” which we will covertly upgrade afterward. At €30 per individual socket including cable pulling as the official price with VAT or for the update then without, I don’t care.

In general, of course, I would have transparency through a tender to know if trade x wants to rip me off. But if I want to build with local companies within a 25 km radius, where everyone knows each other or where I know they maintain a price/performance ratio acceptable for the region, then I have to bypass the classical tender process. This approach must also be seen in light of the fact that nowadays you don’t get 3-5 offers per trade but only 1-2 because the workload is simply present at the moment. : And what are your experiences with your tender process right now?

: We had all the offers after 2 weeks. Here it only works through who knows whom. The plan is to submit the exemption application to the building authority in January/February. That means we’re not proceeding here according to a waterfall model :)

: Ok understood.

I recently had a thread about this ... but with tapatalk it's difficult to find and link. Our architects also do not provide a scope of work description. We are in the middle of the bank round and having quite different experiences. Some banks provide a form to tick off (probably often used for existing buildings), others are satisfied with the cost breakdown, from which the fittings also emerge. Another bank says the scope of work description is only available once the tender is issued, so it should be submitted later. If there is already an offer, simply include it. Likewise, banks have already rejected us because, for example, they only want to lend up to 80% and the project is devalued (for various reasons, all do it differently again). Since then, I have been submitting all the documents I have and supporting the value of the project. For example, the exposé of the new development area because there really are some clever people who take the standard land value (field, 5€) instead of the purchase price. That then leads to devaluation in the six-figure range. You can only shake your head, that’s not how you finance new buildings.

, it was similar for us, this is just common with our provider. They have been working with the well-established companies for a long time because they have a good price/performance ratio and a very good reputation, and here in "the village" no one can afford to mess up.

We took the initial offers to the bank (offers for interior windowsills, tiles, exterior facilities, doors, and painting were missing - these were simply calculated as a lump sum) and that was enough for them; in the end, all offers were renegotiated by us so that everyone benefited. But this only happened after the bank’s approval.

And so far I have to say, touch wood, everything is going quite well and we do not regret that we did it exactly this way (even though we were a bit skeptical at first because I had read a lot here ^^) by going with the local companies instead of a big provider. (before the final decision, we also checked out Viebrockhaus and some other big providers)

, with us it went similarly, that’s just how it is usual with our provider. They have been working for a long time with established companies because they have a good price/performance ratio and a very good reputation, and here "in the village" no one can really afford big mistakes. We went to the bank with the first offers (offers for interior window sills, tiles, outdoor facilities, doors, and painting were missing – these were just calculated as flat rates) and that was enough for them; in the end, all offers from us were renegotiated so that everyone benefited. But that only happened after the bank’s approval. And so far I have to say, knock on wood, everything is going quite well and we do not regret that we did it just this way (and that even though we were a bit skeptical at first because I had read a lot here ^^) with the local companies instead of a big provider. (we were also at Viebrockhaus and another big provider before the final decision)

Nice to hear that "our" approach is not wrong and that you can report positive things. The feedback regarding your bank already makes me positive, even though every bank will have different criteria. But I also believe that using existing offers as a basis for evaluation & approval is definitely better than a signed €/m³ estimate by the architect.

Hi!

: And how are your experiences with your tendering process at the moment?

Regarding what? The return rate? As far as that goes, it largely depends on the trade. Shell construction was a disaster, over 70 (!) companies in the region (Nuremberg) were contacted, got a staggering 6 offers, renegotiated and in the end it was the one who pushed the price down again because he always wanted to build a project with our architectural firm.

Otherwise, it’s similar here as with you. The architectural firm also has its craftsmen they have been working successfully with for many years – just not, as with a general contractor, often on a binding basis, but with prices that both parties (client and craftsman) can live with. Whoever proves difficult (in project process, reliability and quality) is dropped from the portfolio. Nevertheless, there are different offers depending on the tender specifications, project situation, availability, etc. With the shell constructor, it was such that he was not unknown to our office but has so far almost always done plastering – they knew each other, but shell construction had not been done with them yet. Therefore, there was a basis for negotiation here – for both sides.

Electricians the same game. Since we are going with KNX, a system integrator was important to us. The one who enjoys a very good reputation here is also an electrician and naturally offers that trade as well. I approached him because I initially only had a planning assignment. In conversation, he told me that he was also interested in taking over the entire trade but so far never had the opportunity to build with our office, but would very much like to. Therefore, he was squeezed in at short notice, has been very committed ever since, is price-competitive – and has by far the greatest KNX expertise I have perceived so far after 5 system integrators/electricians.

Regarding the tendering situation otherwise: trades like roofer, tinsmith, carpenter went quite well with a lead time of 1 to 3 months. Sanitary/ HVAC feel like they need more lead time.

: We had all offers after 2 weeks. Here it’s only about who knows whom. The plan is to submit the exemption application to the building authority in January/February. That means we are not proceeding here according to a waterfall model :)
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Well, strictly speaking, what you are doing right now is waterfall par excellence ;-) … by the way, there is nothing wrong with the waterfall model if it fits the project/problem.

What would not have worked for us would have been to do tenders with the preliminary draft and then run to the bank. In the course of the execution planning, quite a few cost factors still come in that have to be resolved situationally. Therefore, I feel significantly "more agile" when I look during the execution planning at what is still possible budget-wise and what is not. Partly only based on the offers. Because of this flexibility, I am building with an architect.

Asking everything in advance (with tender specifications) would have brought us nothing either, since, for example, the heating system air-water heat pump vs. ground-water heat pump is budget-dependent. Electricians queried in advance were not even willing to have a conversation before execution planning had started. "Best come by when it goes into proper planning, otherwise I can only tell you KNX will be more expensive than conventional (with the same functionality), but that doesn’t help you either..."

Then we basically build only 10km-20km apart (if I read your signature). So it would be interesting to check where we (you and I) stand price-wise or differ :-)