Nordheide
2022-07-15 12:51:29
- #1
Renovation
Hello,
we (He 48, She 50) have also gutted an older two-family house. I want to share an experience report about the costs and trades involved. Although a comparison from house to house is naturally not always possible, one can certainly estimate what general items will be on the plan.
Basic data:
Location: Seevetal, 10km south of Hamburg.
Two-family house, solid brick facing. Built 1965. 210 sqm living space (ground floor 112, upper floor 90, stairwell 8),
full basement 100 sqm. Plot just under 1000 sqm.
Electrical system from the year of construction + several confusing extensions over the years.
Oil heating from 1990. Windows from the 80s.
Building fabric very good, roof renewed in 2003 (including insulation of the slanted ceilings in the upper floor, but not
the roof in the huge attic).
My wife’s parents’ house, both parents passed away not long ago. So we are talking about inheritance.
Our previous house on 570 sqm was from 1988 a few streets away in a former new development area.
Nice brick and actually very cozy. We had also installed new windows in 2018 and updated quite a bit.
However, with 3 rooms and 98 sqm and an unfavorable layout as well as the small plot (dogs),
no longer the optimum.
The decision to sell and move to the bigger house was made. Considerations to rent the previous house or use it
as a holiday home fell through. About 190,000 euros were still outstanding with the bank
(bought in 1999 at 8% interest and 1% repayment. Only after refinancing in 2009 was repayment massively increased). The installment of
1450 euros could not be recovered by classic renting.
One idea was still to sell both houses and move a place further to a house with 12,000 sqm of land on the Elbe
(Hamburg commuter belt). However, in addition to the proceeds of both houses, we would have had to pay another 100,000 plus partial
modernization there. I would have done it, but my wife did not see the point in selling two houses
and taking on additional debt to move into a new one. Moreover, selling the parents’ house was actually not an option,
although viewings were already ongoing. For the (our current) two-family house, we would have gotten 380,000 - already
partially gutted and cleaned out, but as it was.
Because we didn’t have to do anything about the relatively new roof, the decision was made to tackle the old house
and live in it ourselves.
Goal: We live on the ground floor and the upper floor will be converted into a holiday apartment for dog vacationers. Not because we are financially
dependent on it, but because we do not need the space upstairs (2 people + dogs. We are “only” in our late 40s but
daughter is already out of the house). So basically as a hobby for a few weeks a year. A private piece of land as a dog run
directly on the Elbe not far from us is attractive as a vacation spot for many sighthound people. We turned out to be right...
We sold our house privately. After over 40 viewings in a 10-day marathon, we had chosen a favorite from 5 couples who already
had financing approval, and 2 months later everything was official. Handover 6 months later.
Our time window was fixed. Start of work June 2020. Handover December 1.
The house had already been gutted by us in spring (except the basement - no construction site there, it was
essential as storage during the renovation).
Subsequently, coordinated companies were commissioned:
Move in and settle.
Descending by cost item:
Heating including underfloor heating: 38,000
Windows: 36,000
Electrical: 33,000
Plastering/filling: 20,000
Kitchens: 19,000
Paving work: 13,000
Sanitary: 12,000
Floor including laying: 6,000
New screed: 4,500
Walls out/support beams: 4,000
Drywall: 3,500
Blown-in insulation: 3,500
Interior doors/frames (DIY): 3,500
Tiling work: 2,500
Remove screed: 2,500
Insulation upper floor ceiling: 2,200
Building expert: 2,500
Underground tank decommission: 1,200
Gas connection incl. earthworks: 1,000
New furniture/furnishing: approx. 35,000
(this includes everything, mailboxes, doorbell signs, paints, lamps, furniture, satellite, etc...)
We paid for many small materials from the private account. Here certainly another
6-8,000 come together, which I also include, since it partly also supported the trades.
Originally, a facade insulation system with new brick slips (clinker tiles) was planned.
We had three offers ready.
The cheapest was 88,000 euros. Additionally, the extension of the roof overhang,
the removal of a balcony and relocation of rain gutters would have been necessary. Costs about another 20,000.
That was too much for us and would have disrupted the schedule. Our heating planner had also offered us
a heat pump at the beginning. Knowing that we would only do the blown-in insulation, the heat pump did not seem economical to me and we chose the gas hybrid. Yes yes... "back then" I paid 3.1 ct per kWh (now 6.2 with price protection until 10/23).
Consumption after two winters so far: about 18,000 kWh per year (including holiday guests for about 30 weeks - it was rented more than we originally planned).
That corresponds to about 90 kWh/sqm year. Could be better, but still manageable. Although during the heating phase
every room in the house is at 21-22 degrees. I don’t even touch the thermostats. I am at least satisfied with the system.
A precise hydraulic balancing is a prerequisite.
What so many neglect: outdoor facilities. So did we.
The paving work (about 120 sqm paths) was calculated. The rest we wanted to do ourselves later. Priority was
the handover date, meaning interior finishing. If we were to do this again, I would also outsource the outdoor facilities
immediately and include the cost accordingly “in the loan”. Otherwise, perpetual construction site threatens.
Pond construction, terrace roofing, terrace (pedestal storage), overhangs, fences, outdoor lighting I do all myself... It’s basically
all finished, but small finishing works are still pending. Costs here were about 15-20,000 more (material only).
This also came from the private account. I enjoy the projects, am handy, but one has to be aware that something is always on the list.
Therefore, occasionally long weekends are just taken off!
What still will come is:
Without including the outdoor facilities, the average is as follows:
Costs for pure renovation (basically turnkey): approx. 215,000.-
Furnishing: approx. 35,000 (ready to live in)
Total: 250,000.-
Of course, for this we would not have gotten a new build including demolition.
This is not luxury. We do have barrier-free tiled showers with underfloor heating,
network in every room controlled from the basement. Electric shutters. Sanitary from Grohe
and modern kitchens. But there was still a lot of room for improvement. No smart home (already annoyed me in the old house) or any other gimmicks.
Funding: 31,000.-
BAFA: 21,000 (40% for everything related to heating replacement, even skirting boards)
KfW: 10,000 (individual projects windows and insulation)
Result: approx. 230,000.-
If you also include the outdoor facilities and all finishing work
(and outsource these), surely another
70,000 will come on top and you are roughly at 300,000 for ready to live.
The house sale brought us a profit of 220,000
(selling price minus outstanding balance, prepayment penalties, etc.)
The trades were contacted early and at the start of the Corona period we were lucky that the situation was not yet as tense as today. Coordinating the trades yourself is by far the most exhausting part of a self-managed renovation because there are just too many dependencies. We basically chose all trades from the local area because contacts are always available and experience is known.
For me the most delicate technically: placing the meter mark, which all trades rely on.
An investment in a good rotary laser is worth it, even if you hardly ever need it again.
Conclusion: Again? No. You don’t need to. An old house with existing charm but basically a new build inside.
We feel comfortable. The basement is a journey into the past. But that also has charm. It will probably be tackled little by little. Main thing space and dry. A basement bar is of course not missing. A relic.
The feeling of being “clean” and having no liabilities is also very valuable to us nowadays. We did not have to restrict ourselves before either, but considering today’s global hotspots, everything will certainly not get cheaper
and more predictable.
Best regards
Arne
Hello,
we (He 48, She 50) have also gutted an older two-family house. I want to share an experience report about the costs and trades involved. Although a comparison from house to house is naturally not always possible, one can certainly estimate what general items will be on the plan.
Basic data:
Location: Seevetal, 10km south of Hamburg.
Two-family house, solid brick facing. Built 1965. 210 sqm living space (ground floor 112, upper floor 90, stairwell 8),
full basement 100 sqm. Plot just under 1000 sqm.
Electrical system from the year of construction + several confusing extensions over the years.
Oil heating from 1990. Windows from the 80s.
Building fabric very good, roof renewed in 2003 (including insulation of the slanted ceilings in the upper floor, but not
the roof in the huge attic).
My wife’s parents’ house, both parents passed away not long ago. So we are talking about inheritance.
Our previous house on 570 sqm was from 1988 a few streets away in a former new development area.
Nice brick and actually very cozy. We had also installed new windows in 2018 and updated quite a bit.
However, with 3 rooms and 98 sqm and an unfavorable layout as well as the small plot (dogs),
no longer the optimum.
The decision to sell and move to the bigger house was made. Considerations to rent the previous house or use it
as a holiday home fell through. About 190,000 euros were still outstanding with the bank
(bought in 1999 at 8% interest and 1% repayment. Only after refinancing in 2009 was repayment massively increased). The installment of
1450 euros could not be recovered by classic renting.
One idea was still to sell both houses and move a place further to a house with 12,000 sqm of land on the Elbe
(Hamburg commuter belt). However, in addition to the proceeds of both houses, we would have had to pay another 100,000 plus partial
modernization there. I would have done it, but my wife did not see the point in selling two houses
and taking on additional debt to move into a new one. Moreover, selling the parents’ house was actually not an option,
although viewings were already ongoing. For the (our current) two-family house, we would have gotten 380,000 - already
partially gutted and cleaned out, but as it was.
Because we didn’t have to do anything about the relatively new roof, the decision was made to tackle the old house
and live in it ourselves.
Goal: We live on the ground floor and the upper floor will be converted into a holiday apartment for dog vacationers. Not because we are financially
dependent on it, but because we do not need the space upstairs (2 people + dogs. We are “only” in our late 40s but
daughter is already out of the house). So basically as a hobby for a few weeks a year. A private piece of land as a dog run
directly on the Elbe not far from us is attractive as a vacation spot for many sighthound people. We turned out to be right...
We sold our house privately. After over 40 viewings in a 10-day marathon, we had chosen a favorite from 5 couples who already
had financing approval, and 2 months later everything was official. Handover 6 months later.
Our time window was fixed. Start of work June 2020. Handover December 1.
The house had already been gutted by us in spring (except the basement - no construction site there, it was
essential as storage during the renovation).
Subsequently, coordinated companies were commissioned:
[*]Order construction supervision for KfW (no KfW standard, only individual measures). BAFA you have to take care of yourself
[*]Remove screed
[*]Dismantle heating system including decommissioning underground tank (the 4 cubic meters were ideal for rubble and turf)
[*]Lay gas connection
[*]Complete new fresh water and wastewater sanitation
[*]Remove walls/support beams installed, cutouts for new terrace accesses
[*]Completely new electrical installation (old wiring remained in the walls)
[*]New heating system (Buderus Logasys Hybrid with solar for hot water and heating)
[*]Complete underfloor heating in ground and upper floors
[*]All windows and front doors new with triple glazing
[*]New screed - forced break in midsummer
[*]Drywall, suspended ceilings and bathrooms
[*]All walls (600 sqm) newly plastered/filled and ceilings painted
[*]Floor laid seamless with rigid vinyl
[*]Top floor ceiling + 25cm insulation. Open insulation. Only a narrow web remains for the chimney sweep
[*]Blown-in insulation for cavity walls
[*]Frames and interior doors new
[*]Kitchen installations
[*]Sanitary installations
[*]Lights, lights, lights
[*]All furniture new
Move in and settle.
Descending by cost item:
Heating including underfloor heating: 38,000
Windows: 36,000
Electrical: 33,000
Plastering/filling: 20,000
Kitchens: 19,000
Paving work: 13,000
Sanitary: 12,000
Floor including laying: 6,000
New screed: 4,500
Walls out/support beams: 4,000
Drywall: 3,500
Blown-in insulation: 3,500
Interior doors/frames (DIY): 3,500
Tiling work: 2,500
Remove screed: 2,500
Insulation upper floor ceiling: 2,200
Building expert: 2,500
Underground tank decommission: 1,200
Gas connection incl. earthworks: 1,000
New furniture/furnishing: approx. 35,000
(this includes everything, mailboxes, doorbell signs, paints, lamps, furniture, satellite, etc...)
We paid for many small materials from the private account. Here certainly another
6-8,000 come together, which I also include, since it partly also supported the trades.
Originally, a facade insulation system with new brick slips (clinker tiles) was planned.
We had three offers ready.
The cheapest was 88,000 euros. Additionally, the extension of the roof overhang,
the removal of a balcony and relocation of rain gutters would have been necessary. Costs about another 20,000.
That was too much for us and would have disrupted the schedule. Our heating planner had also offered us
a heat pump at the beginning. Knowing that we would only do the blown-in insulation, the heat pump did not seem economical to me and we chose the gas hybrid. Yes yes... "back then" I paid 3.1 ct per kWh (now 6.2 with price protection until 10/23).
Consumption after two winters so far: about 18,000 kWh per year (including holiday guests for about 30 weeks - it was rented more than we originally planned).
That corresponds to about 90 kWh/sqm year. Could be better, but still manageable. Although during the heating phase
every room in the house is at 21-22 degrees. I don’t even touch the thermostats. I am at least satisfied with the system.
A precise hydraulic balancing is a prerequisite.
What so many neglect: outdoor facilities. So did we.
The paving work (about 120 sqm paths) was calculated. The rest we wanted to do ourselves later. Priority was
the handover date, meaning interior finishing. If we were to do this again, I would also outsource the outdoor facilities
immediately and include the cost accordingly “in the loan”. Otherwise, perpetual construction site threatens.
Pond construction, terrace roofing, terrace (pedestal storage), overhangs, fences, outdoor lighting I do all myself... It’s basically
all finished, but small finishing works are still pending. Costs here were about 15-20,000 more (material only).
This also came from the private account. I enjoy the projects, am handy, but one has to be aware that something is always on the list.
Therefore, occasionally long weekends are just taken off!
What still will come is:
[*]Renovation (railings and flooring) of the roof terrace and the balcony.
[*]Pave the driveway
[*]New double carport (old one still ok, but ugly)
Without including the outdoor facilities, the average is as follows:
Costs for pure renovation (basically turnkey): approx. 215,000.-
Furnishing: approx. 35,000 (ready to live in)
Total: 250,000.-
Of course, for this we would not have gotten a new build including demolition.
This is not luxury. We do have barrier-free tiled showers with underfloor heating,
network in every room controlled from the basement. Electric shutters. Sanitary from Grohe
and modern kitchens. But there was still a lot of room for improvement. No smart home (already annoyed me in the old house) or any other gimmicks.
Funding: 31,000.-
BAFA: 21,000 (40% for everything related to heating replacement, even skirting boards)
KfW: 10,000 (individual projects windows and insulation)
Result: approx. 230,000.-
If you also include the outdoor facilities and all finishing work
(and outsource these), surely another
70,000 will come on top and you are roughly at 300,000 for ready to live.
The house sale brought us a profit of 220,000
(selling price minus outstanding balance, prepayment penalties, etc.)
The trades were contacted early and at the start of the Corona period we were lucky that the situation was not yet as tense as today. Coordinating the trades yourself is by far the most exhausting part of a self-managed renovation because there are just too many dependencies. We basically chose all trades from the local area because contacts are always available and experience is known.
For me the most delicate technically: placing the meter mark, which all trades rely on.
An investment in a good rotary laser is worth it, even if you hardly ever need it again.
Conclusion: Again? No. You don’t need to. An old house with existing charm but basically a new build inside.
We feel comfortable. The basement is a journey into the past. But that also has charm. It will probably be tackled little by little. Main thing space and dry. A basement bar is of course not missing. A relic.
The feeling of being “clean” and having no liabilities is also very valuable to us nowadays. We did not have to restrict ourselves before either, but considering today’s global hotspots, everything will certainly not get cheaper
and more predictable.
Best regards
Arne