Offer from the architect/engineer, building owner's protection association

Hello everyone,

we are from Central Hesse and decided to build about 2 years ago. I am new here and already thank you for the tips.

After a long search, we finally found a plot of land that satisfies us. Since we have many craftsmen (electricians, plumbers, plasterers, heating engineers, painters, masons) in the family/friend circle, an architect is supposed to plan the house and supervise it up to the shell construction (earthworks, masonry work, concrete work, roof). We will commission the other trades ourselves.

Architect/Engineer:

I contacted an architect, and he sent me an offer that also includes engineering services for thermal protection/energy and statics. All gross prices

1) €4,000.00 basis, preliminary planning and design planning, cost calculation for the bank
2) €6,000.00 approval planning
3) €2,400.00 shell construction supervision and acceptance (Only supervision of masonry and concrete work. The service description does not say anything about awarding/ordering the shell builder, earthworks contractor or carpenter. I still have to ask.)
4) €3,600.00 statics and thermal protection certificate
Total €16,000.00 gross.

What do you think about this offer? I find the second service expensive. We have not accepted it yet and are still waiting for answers from other architects.

Associations for building owner protection:

We definitely intend to discuss contracts and offers with an expert and/or lawyer. Is it helpful for our building project to register with the Bauherren-Schutzbund or the Verband Privater Bauherren? Ok, the membership fees are not so high that you cannot afford them, but I still see no advantage in having the associations as mediators for experts or lawyers.

1) Most experts are either civil engineers or architects themselves. If we have an architect, I can have his offer checked by an expert. Then our architect takes over the control on the construction site up to the shell construction. After that, we can still commission him to criticize the remaining services.

2) A friend told me he had given an expert from the Verband Privater Bauherren—which I also had in mind—€500.00 to review the contract with the general contractor. In addition about €2,000.00 for 5 inspection appointments including travel costs (25 km distance). I really don’t see the price advantage there. On his homepage and on the Seite of the Verband Privater Bauherren the fees are the same.

What is your opinion on this?

Thanks

1) €4,000.00 basis, preliminary planning and design planning, cost calculation for the bank
2) €6,000.00 approval planning
3) €2,400.00 shell construction supervision and acceptance (only supervision of masonry and concrete work. The service description says nothing about awarding/ordering the shell builder, civil engineer or carpenter. I still have to ask.)
4) €3,600.00 statics and thermal insulation certificate
Total €16,000.00 gross.

What do you think of this offer? I find the second service expensive. We have not accepted it yet and are still waiting for answers from other architects.

This is now a bit of a "gray area". Architects usually charge according to HOAI (->google), where the fee is calculated, among other things, based on the so-called "eligible costs". There are different planning phases, namely 1-9.

If you take a look at it, your offer is rather "cheap". However, it would need to be clarified, for example, according to which plans the shell construction supervision takes place? Approval planning is only at 1:100 scale, working drawings are usually at 1:50 scale.

Awarding / tendering is a separate service phase, for which at least our architect used the working drawings as a basis to define all items and quantities accordingly. In your case, only the shell would be tendered and supervised (supervision: separate service phase), so the effort and level of detail of the plans might be somewhat reduced again. But, for example, how the shell builder is supposed to place recesses and openings in the right places if neither electrical planning nor HVAC are known is probably an interesting question.

You just have to read carefully what you are getting. "Basis, preliminary planning and design planning" is actually a much higher effort than the approval planning, in which you only assemble the documents from the previous phases. From the fee breakdown, it can be concluded that for 1) you get a plan that will be refined 1-2 more times. In 2) he then compiles a document, which has no benefit for you except to obtain the building permit. 3) For the fee, it is just a few inspections and writing a protocol. 4) "You have a standard house and the static and WS proofs can be slightly modified from a comparable house." Actually, as already mentioned, something like this would be much more expensive.

Hey,

thanks to you for the answers.


I have looked at the HOAI and know that this offer is already very cheap. The actual content still needs to be examined more closely. I am still gathering the list of questions that I will ask him, including electrical, HVAC plans, etc. etc.


I myself don’t understand why it is divided this way. Besides, he already knows the plot of land and the requirements of the building authority.
He also said he has a shell construction company that they sometimes work with. He could commission them later if we want. But I don’t trust that kind of thing because the architect should rather be on our side and not be "friends" with the construction company.

Do architects nowadays charge exactly 100% according to HOAI? I have seen the offer of another architect from a friend – divided according to HOAI. For chargeable costs of 350k, he charged a total of 26k net, about 60% only. Fee level III, HOAI 2013.

If we want to work with this architect, then he should write the offer in more detail. Everything he wants to do should be stated, because we cannot rely on HOAI for any services.

The architect's offer is inexpensive. Anyone who chooses an architect based on the price acts as if they prefer a cheap house rather than a good one.

Do architects nowadays calculate exactly 100% according to HOAI?

I can only say this from limited personal experience (and from conversations with our architect), but for me the situation looks like this:

Most clients take the architect "included" in the total price through the general contractor/developer. They never see costs for the planning, the architect is "free" (of course nonsense, but legitimate. Overall package with mixed calculation).

Architects who work in the new construction sector and are supposed to plan rather "normal" houses tend to offer flat-rate or "cheap" offers, since hardly any client wants to pay the full amount according to HOAI there (for ~50,000€ I get a lot of upselling from the general contractor...). The house is then a variation of old plans to keep the effort as low as possible.

In the renovation/refurbishment sector, on the other hand, there are not many alternatives to a good architect if you are not a professional yourself or have a lot of trust in the coordination skills of the involved trades. There, architects can sometimes even manage to assert a renovation surcharge on top of the HOAI.

In your case the situation is somewhat different, since you only want parts from the architect. To what extent this can really be sensibly separated, you have to see. If you already know the other craftsmen to whom you want to award contracts yourself, you can of course try to have their planning somehow considered. Whether I would do that as an architect or how liability would look there probably depends on the general workload.