Architect costs realistic yes/no

hello,
we have paid an invoice of €11,900 for our architect, who is also taking over the BL. The invoice included the complete completion of the plans, building application in multiple copies, all visits to the city and building authorities, structural engineer meetings and signatures, etc., AND the three plan changes (since the house was to become larger).
Is this within the normal range? Was the invoice excessive?
I would appreciate your assessments

Hello NUISETTE,

to be able to answer your question, a few more pieces of information are needed.

Have you signed an architect contract with the architect, and have any possible advance payments been agreed upon there? At least you must have discussed his fee with him.

How large is your house going to be, that is, can you tell me the estimated total construction cost?

According to your information, it sounds like the invoice issued is a partial invoice for €10,000 plus VAT. Is that correct?

You write: "complete completion of the plans." Does the invoice already include the execution plans at a scale of 1:50 and any detailed plans for the construction site?

The fee for the structural engineer will probably not be included in this, I assume.

To what extent were the plans changed three times? Were these minor changes to accommodate your wishes regarding the size of the house, or did the architect have to design completely new houses at your request? He certainly first asked you about your building wishes and ideas and the financial framework and then created at least a preliminary design.

It looks to me as if he just wants to invoice the work already done with this partial invoice. Usually, this is quite legitimate. To be able to assess its amount, the above-mentioned information would be necessary. With this information, I could classify its amount based on the HOAI (Official Scale of Fees for Services by Architects and Engineers). However, to carry out an absolutely precise review, it would have to be checked whether he has provided all required services in all billed service phases. But I would assume that at first.

Hello Danton,

as far as I can, I try to respond. But the structural engineer was included. (after his signature was present on the building permit application and he is, in a certain way, also liable for it, his work at this point is completed)
First of all: You are dealing here with an absolute layman and I cannot reproduce all the explanations of the architect in detail..
The fact is, contractually we have NOTHING at all with the architect yet. We have been planning the house for about half a year and just the hours he spent with us justify the invoice itself. (his employees also worked on it) But the fact is also that we have received a rough cost estimate, the detailed cost estimate (turnkey) will come this week. The house is worth about 320,000 euros (onlyHOUSE, solid, construction volume 930³). In the estimate we will receive this week, ALL construction/trade services are included, also the architect's fees (which he wants to deduct again there)

The quite high costs have arisen because we are planning a hillside construction. The changes were requested by us, but they were not completely new plans in the sense that it was a completely new house each time. Only walls, dimensions and structural engineer discussions became necessary again. (e.g. he assumed that an enlargement would not necessarily entail the load-bearing basement wall being moved - but according to the structural engineer it ultimately had to be so and the assumed increase in cost was exceeded again.)

It is really hard sometimes for a layman to "keep up" why and for what reason some things suddenly do not work or require much more effort to implement, etc... now I also understand why it is always said "building makes you gray"

Hello NUISETTE,

with the signature of the structural engineer, you probably mean the form "Declaration of the installer of structural evidence" for the simplified approval procedure, I assume. This does not yet mean that the work of the structural engineer is finished. It only means that the evidence to be prepared by him complies with public building law and does not necessarily have to be checked by the building supervisory authorities. This also means that the corresponding inspection fee is waived for the builder.
So I would assume that the structural engineer will also invoice the due fee after completion of his services (structural safety evidence including plans and lists, possibly energy certificate, etc.).

If no written architect contract has been concluded so far, there is probably still a contract agreed upon – even if only verbally – according to the Building Code. In this case, the minimum rates of the HOAI apply to the architect's services.

The construction costs vary regionally, but here I calculate with an estimated value of €275 per m³ of enclosed space, since, as you say, it is a hillside location and probably at least part of the lower floor can be used for residential purposes.
This results in a finished construction sum of (930m³ x €275/m³ =) €255,750 gross.
The chargeable net construction sum thus amounts to around €215,000.

According to §16 HOAI, Zone III, minimum rate, an architect’s fee for all basic services across all service phases results in €23,024.20 plus VAT.

As you describe, he has so far worked through service phases 1 to 4 (basic evaluation, preliminary planning, design planning, and approval planning). These four service phases together amount to (3% + 7% + 11% + 6%) 27% of the total fee, i.e. €6,216.53 plus VAT.

If the execution planning (service phase 5) is also already completed, this results in a claim of (27% + 25%) 52% of the total fee, i.e. €11,972.58 plus VAT.

Normally, this should also be apparent from the architect’s invoice, if only to avoid any uncertainties (mistrust).

For determining the structural engineer’s fee, the net shell construction sum is taken here; I assume 45% of the finished construction sum.
The chargeable net shell construction sum thus amounts to ( €215,000 x 45% =) around €96,750.

According to §65 HOAI, Zone II, minimum rate, a structural engineer’s fee for all basic services across all service phases results in €9,502.17 plus VAT.

Which services of the architect and/or the structural engineer have actually been rendered so far cannot of course be judged from here. Therefore, the above fee calculation can only be regarded as a guideline.
To what extent the mentioned changes will additionally affect costs, I also cannot yet assess. For this reason, I have not included them.

In case of uncertainties, I would therefore always first seek a calm and clarifying conversation. The collaboration between a builder and his architect/structural engineer should always be based on full trust, similar to that of a lawyer, doctor, or tax advisor.

Why it should now be said: "building causes grief," I have not heard this saying before and cannot comprehend it from my experience.
On the contrary, the building process has actually brought my clients a lot of joy throughout, and I can say this without any qualms.

I would be interested in comparing your architect’s cost statement with mine. However, as mentioned, it depends on which area of Germany you live or want to build in.

Good morning Danton,

we are very grateful for the explanations and clarifications, that is very reassuring. The invoice is titled "Fee installment payments" for exactly the mentioned 10,000€ + VAT. I was just a bit confused because I read here in the forum about architect fees of 2800 euros and less.
According to the building authority, construction begins on 29.6.09. I hope this date is realistic given our current planning status.

There are still some things unclear to us where we would like to consult a second professional.
The building contract is supposed to be completed this week, we can send it to you. It seems to me that the construction sum is incredibly high; from my point of view, the house is not necessarily a hyper-modern building with all sorts of roof styles and projections and so on. What justifies this much money from a layman's perspective? Nevertheless, I want to emphasize that the trust is definitely there, otherwise we would have stopped long ago. But as a client who might ruin himself in the worst case, one is grateful for a second opinion or consultation. Is it possible to have a telephone consultation with you?

Best regards

Hello NUISETTE,

actually we were on a first-name basis, and I am fine with keeping it that way.

The architects' and engineers' fees as well as the corresponding services to be provided by them are regulated in the HOAI, which has the character of a law.
There may be colleagues who undercut these fee rates. However, this cannot be in the interest of a client, as there is a near certainty that the services will not be rendered as required by the quality and safety of buildings.
It is also complicating that these fee rates have not been adjusted to general price increases since 1996. An adjustment is currently under political discussion.

Does your building authority specify the start date of construction???
I can hardly imagine that.

Certainly, I am also willing to conduct a telephone consultation as far as this is possible at all. For this, I would have to, as you have rightly pointed out, inspect the relevant documents.
However, I must also mention that for a proper consultation I have to charge a consultation fee. This can usually only be billed on an hourly basis according to §6 HOAI based on effort.

If you want to get in touch with me, there are three ways:
1. Just send me a private message with your contact details and I will get back to you.
2. You can find my address on the left in the ads.
3. You can find my number normally in the phone book.

I am always happy when I can help someone.