New "meaning" for the house, planning costs

Hello, I own a - soon to be even more so - far too big house. Corner construction, the long sides about 15m, the short gable sides 7 and 8m respectively, fully basemented, with living space even down there. In total 9 - 10 rooms, several bathrooms (in a dilapidated condition) on 1.5 floors. The roof (45°) is (in my opinion) very complicatedly made, the ridge runs crosswise and thus creates 4 gable surfaces. I hope that is expressed understandably, I lack the technical terms, anyway many valleys and bends. There are 7 Velux windows in the roof. Knee wall 70cm, the entire upper floor is clad with tongue and groove boards (shakes). The interior walls of the upper floor reach down to the underside of the attic, the tongue and groove boards are stapled to the roof beams lying on them, meaning - the attic is not walkable. The insulation above hangs down in tatters, what is going on in the roof slopes can only be guessed. The outer walls are double-shell masonry, pumice, air with rock wool or similar, and full field-burnt clinker in front. But because the previous owners/builders had not pointed the house (shell construction finished in 1981 by the way) and after buying it water came through the walls, I think the insulation no longer does its job... So. Long story short - soon there will be just two of us here, as all the kids are flying the nest. Selling and moving away is out of the question! Good neighbors cannot be bought! The considerations range from 1. remodeling and renting out half. That would work, there are 2 stairs going up. 2. same and make a holiday apartment out of it. This is a touristically interesting area, could work. So. And 3. Everyone thinks I'm crazy - take down the upper floor, put a new, well insulated lid on it and the bungalow for 2 is ready. Now finally to my question: If I were to commission an architect to calculate these 3 ideas for me, what would that cost? With roof, insulation, new bathrooms, turning stairs, financing... and so on and so forth. All the explanations above only so that you can estimate what would come upon an architect... Are my considerations really that absurd? I think, for the entire effort of a proper insulation/extension of the upper floor (it would have to be put into a shell construction to do it properly), new bathrooms in the upper floor, new second front door, hallway partition... you can get a decent new roof, right? Especially since the reduction in energy costs, property taxes, etc. through the downsizing must also be taken into account in the calculation. Thank you for your answers! Regards Birgit

Hello Birgit,

Now finally to my question: If I were to hire an architect to calculate these 3 ideas for me, what would something like that cost? With roof, insulation, new bathrooms, turning the staircase, financing... and so on. All the explanations above just so you can estimate what would be involved with an architect...

This cannot be estimated in a general way, since the architect's fee is based on the effort and the expected construction costs. What you should definitely pay attention to is that you hire an architect who is experienced with house renovations. Have a consultation with him – usually free within reasonable limits – ask about his hourly rates and what they consist of, then you will have a rough cost estimate.

Whether you expand / convert or demolish, it is not little effort in any case. Especially if you have the upper floor removed, special precautions must be taken regarding the protection of the ground floor. From my experience, I would estimate that all 3 mentioned variants will result in roughly the same fee.

Are my considerations really that far-fetched? I think for the whole effort of a proper insulation / expansion of the upper floor (it would have to be put into a shell construction to do it properly), new bathrooms upstairs, new second front door, hallway partition... you can get a reasonable new roof, right? Especially since in the calculation the reduction of energy costs, property taxes etc. due to the reduction must also be taken into account.

Whether a third person calls them "far-fetched" can’t matter to you; it’s your house and you have to know where your preferences lie. Regardless of the use of probably a lot of money – whatever variant you choose – you should base your final decision also on your future plans. Are your children going to inherit, do you want to sell later, etc.? I would also mention that – if you always only lived together with your family – it is something completely different to have strangers – whether temporary vacation guests or permanent tenants – in the house.

Btw. – a 4th option would be the demolition of the existing property and subsequent new construction of a bungalow

Kind regards

Hello Building Expert,
thank you very much for your answer.
So definitely an architect for renovations.

From my experience, I would estimate that all 3 mentioned options bring about roughly the same fee.

I want 3 calculations from him. Do I then have to pay him for each one individually, so triple the amount? I thought something like that would be done as a flat rate? Or does he get the price for the most expensive option? And what if I then say, none of that works?...

Regardless of the probably large amount of money spent – no matter which option you decide on – you should also base your final choice on your future plans. Are your children supposed to inherit, do you want to sell later, etc.?

When I retire, I want to have a debt-free house that I can still afford on my probably meager pension. I’ve put the selling issue behind me. Tried everything. Nobody wants such a huge house nowadays. Of course my children will inherit. But I don’t live to pass something on. If something’s left over – lucky me.

it is something completely different to have strangers – whether temporary holiday guests or permanent tenants – in the house

Those are also my big concerns. Tenants – even in our rural area, you hear more and more about tenant vandals. I guess three months, and I could wave the white flag. (The whole thing would have to be fully financed anyway!)
Holiday guests: I’m working full-time, how am I supposed to really take care of them satisfactorily...

Btw. – a 4th option would be to demolish the existing property and subsequently build a bungalow

So, you think that costs as much as a new build???

I have to say, even though I’m really glad you answer so honestly – you really take the wind out of my sails. That would absolutely bury the topic and I have to see how things continue here.
But I’ll still do some googling for an architect who knows about renovations. It would be nice if you could briefly answer my questions above.
Regards Birgit

Hello Birgit,

I want 3 calculations from him. Do I then have to pay him for all 3 separately, so three times the amount?

That decisively depends on the agreements you make with him; the architect will always have to bill according to the HOAI, that is prescribed by law. I could imagine that his fee will consist of about 3% for the "basic evaluation" and about 7% for the "preliminary planning," each based on the expected construction costs.

So, you mean it costs as much as a new building???

Conversion – here even renovation – is always expensive; consider the effort required to renew the entire insulation of the building envelope, to make the attic accessible, or possibly to protect the existing building if the roof structure is to be completely removed. I could also imagine that the technology does not fully correspond to the most modern standards or at least needs to be expanded from 1 party to later supply 3 parties, etc. It has always been the case that renovations of old properties are almost as costly as a complete new build. With the latter, you additionally have the advantage that the building to be constructed corresponds to the latest state of technology.

Before you decide on one or the other option, I would definitely recommend that you have a valuation report prepared; especially since you do not seem to know what kind of building fabric you can expect. This report will cost you about €800-1000 and will identify all weak points of the building along with a cost overview. Only in the second step – that is, once you know what would be involved in renovating the "current condition" and can estimate whether it is worthwhile/supports itself – would I commission an architect with further calculation based on the results of the valuation report.

I have to say, even though I am very glad that you answer so honestly – you really take the wind out of my sails. That would definitely bury the topic, and I have to see how things go from here.

It makes no sense to put "ideas" in your head when I know reality looks different. My suggestion: have a valuation report prepared and proceed step by step – provided the building fabric allows it.

Kind regards