Electrical planning, motion detector, timer switch, lighting

Hello,

since the house construction is starting soon, we have spent the last few days thinking about lighting and socket planning.

Basically, we would like to focus more on LED technology and also include indirect lighting.
In general, I have a few questions about this.

1. Staircase
We have a half-turned staircase with a tall, narrow window.
We would like to install stair spots just above the steps here.
Do the spots illuminate the stairwell sufficiently, or should, for example, wall lights still be installed?
How should the switching be designed here? Spots on a timer switch and wall lamps on a switch or motion detector?

2. Hallway
We would like to control the lighting via flush-mounted motion detectors.
Is continuous light also possible with the motion detectors?
I have installed a ceiling motion detector between the switch and the lamp in our current hallway. When standing there and chatting with someone, the light constantly goes off. At the switch, I can only set it to permanently off but not permanently on.

3. Living room
We would like to integrate indirect lighting with a suspended ceiling here.
Does anyone have experience with what to consider, or has anyone seen this live before?

4. Sockets
Where are sockets planned nowadays? Except for the kitchen, are they always installed 30 cm above the floor, or is a socket installed under the light switch? Especially when vacuuming around the house, bending down to 30 cm doesn't really make sense.

The electrician commissioned by our general contractor will presumably charge 40€ per socket and 80€ for a double socket.
I find the 80€ quite expensive considering that no additional cable needs to be pulled. Is that normal?
Is it only worthwhile to order single sockets and later install a double socket yourself?
My uncle was an electrician, and I have connected sockets before. Of course, you then have to cut into a fresh wall again.

5. Dimmer
Where do dimmers make sense?

6. Roller shutters
With the exception of the patio door, we have only specified manual window roller shutters.
At the moment, we are planning a socket for each window. If you ever have too much money left and want to retrofit electric roller shutters, you could use the power from there in my opinion, or is there any objection to this? Do you have to consider anything for the roller shutters so that they can be retrofitted?

Basically, we would like to increasingly rely on LED technology and gladly also include indirect lighting.
In general, I have a few questions about that

I thought so too, until I found out the prices. Apart from the fact that the technology is not yet mature, and the light is sometimes really unusual, the prices are incredible.
For example, our pendant lamp above the dining table (7x20W halogen) cost just under €200 including modular lampshades.
We looked for an alternative for a long time, and what we found: lamps that look completely identical with BUILT-IN LED lights. Of course, the salesperson assured us they never break, which I believe for LEDs, but what is quite certain to break is the electronics behind them.
The price was then €800 reduced. Now quickly calculate how much electricity I get for €600, and how long the lamp would have to burn for that.

Our lamp has been hanging now for 6 months, and so far no bulb failure. And if so, they cost just €1.30 each in bulk. Just one of the examples.

Sockets:
We have a socket in every room at the entrance under the light switch. Although our vacuum cleaner has a 10m cable... one socket in the hallway would have been enough, because we currently don't use any more. (as far as vacuuming is concerned)
Regarding the price, we were also charged €45 per socket. And with almost 60 additional sockets in the house, that would have been a hefty amount. Fortunately, this item was dropped after negotiations in the end. We ultimately got a free rein for electrical installations and could freely distribute sockets and switches however we pleased.
Doing it yourself: then clarify who will assume the warranty.

Hello,

since the house construction is about to start soon, we have sat down the last few days to think about lighting and socket planning.

Our electrical planning was also done recently... just check the thread, I got good information there, but planned some things differently now. I will refer to that as well.

Basically, we would like to rely more on LED technology and also like to include indirect lighting.
In general, I have a few questions about that

1. Stairwell
We have a half-turn staircase with a tall narrow window.
We would like to install stair spots just above the steps here.
Do the spots illuminate the stairwell sufficiently or should, for example, wall lights still be installed?
How should the control be designed here? Spots via timer and wall lamps via switch or motion detector?

We have now chosen spots for the stairwell (which is open to the living room), which are not directly on the steps but are connected with additional accent spots. 1-watt LED bulbs will be installed there, which can be turned off from the hallway and upstairs. They can burn continuously, especially during the dark season, which would be useful for you.
Additionally, I would install a wall or ceiling outlet for you, so you can also see cobwebs when cleaning.

2. Hallway
We would like to control the lighting via flush-mounted motion sensors.
Is continuous light still possible with the motion sensors?
In our current hallway, I installed a ceiling motion sensor between the switch and the lamp. When you stand there chatting with someone, the light constantly goes off. At the switch, I can only set it to permanent off but not permanent on.

With motion sensors, I would consider: it can be practical, but you will first stand in the light when someone rings at the door in the dark. Or if you want to investigate noises, you don’t want to stand in the spotlight either. Otherwise, it is certainly possible to have both: we want to use motion sensors outside but also have a circuit for continuous light, and according to the electrician, that can be done.

4. Sockets
Where are sockets usually planned nowadays? Except for the kitchen, are they always placed about 30 cm above the floor or do you always install a socket under the light switch? Especially when vacuuming, bending down to 30 cm actually doesn’t make sense.

The electrician uses the standard of (probably) 25-30 cm. Work sockets are located under the light switch and usually standard for each room.
We have omitted some work sockets because I don’t want to change sockets in every room all the time when vacuuming. Also, I always find it annoying to feel for a socket in the dark near the light switch. We mentally walked around to think where it could or should be switched.

Our electrician commissioned by the general contractor probably charges €40 per socket and €80 for a double socket.
I find €80 quite expensive since no additional cable has to be pulled. Is that normal?
Is it only worth ordering single sockets and later adding a double socket by self-installation?
My uncle used to be an electrician and I have already connected sockets. Of course, you end up breaking into a fresh wall again.

Our general contractor also charges €39.50 per socket. We left this item open.
During the site visit with the electrician, we went through everything, and he gave us a cost estimate for the additional lines. He quoted €26.50 per socket, and everything else was also cheaper. For example, a data socket costs only half compared to the general contractor (60 instead of 120).
Our general contractor doesn’t want to have anything to do with our own work anymore; standard sockets were removed by the electrician, and the invoice (surcharge) will be paid to the electrician.
With red Poroton bricks, dealing with the red dust later is annoying. But you can probably make two out of one as long as only a charger is plugged in. You also don’t see a triple socket behind a bookshelf.

5. Dimmer
Where do dimmers make sense?

Above the dining table, so nothing dazzles. Living room ceiling light, to create atmosphere. Lamps and bulbs must be suitable. We have also planned dimmers in the bathroom for the overhead lights. We have that now, and it’s nice when bathing.
So dimmers everywhere the main light should also be mood light.

6. Roller shutters
Except for the patio door, we have only sampled manual window roller shutters.
Currently, we are planning a socket for every window. In case you happen to have too much money someday and want to retrofit electric roller shutters, one could probably use the power from there or is there anything speaking against that? Do you have to consider anything about the roller shutters to make them convertible?

We do the same. We now have electric ones, and it’s annoying. The automatic function is switched off. We will not always operate the roller shutters, but we think the aluminum things can still be operated with little force.
I can’t say more about that.

Have fun planning!

Hello Musketeer,

Regarding 2)
When using UP-IR sensors in combination with LED technology, you have to be careful not to get one of the usual "standard" sensors that only work with normal ohmic loads like incandescent and halogen lamps.

It is not a problem to have either no light at all or permanent light despite sensor technology. My 10m high staircase spanning 3 floors is sensor-controlled and illuminated for 5 minutes without pressing a button at the first step inside, which is enough for the longest way when dawdling. I have connected the sensors in parallel to my crossover wiring, so you only have to hit one of the three switches to get permanent light. However, you also have to remember to turn it off again. If darkening is arranged, there are "emergency switches" connected in series on each floor for deactivation, so each floor is equal. A professional should be able to do this easily. Although I built it myself, it was tested and approved by a company, which saved me well over €10,000 including LAN/ISDN/alarm system among other things due to elaborate UP chasing.

4)
There are also double sockets that require only one installation box. Otherwise, you would have to mill another box above or below. Wiring is not a problem because you only have to clamp the conductors to the next box. The conductor cross-section of the laid cable does not have to be changed; the 2nd box can be loaded just like the first one.

The idea of having so-called "work sockets" directly under the switch horrifies me. In my opinion, this only serves to make installation easier for the electrician. Alone the high tension of the power cable from the wall creates trip hazards in my opinion.

I thought so too, until I found out the prices. Apart from the fact that the technology is not yet mature and the light is sometimes really unusual, the prices are incredible.

Yes, I have seen that as well. Strangely, the tubes and especially the strips are comparatively cheap.
With those you can create quite good indirect lighting. But I have not seen it live anywhere yet.
For normal lighting, I generally tend towards regular lamps combined with LED bulbs. I think I will test that out beforehand.

Our electrical planning was also recent... just check the thread, I got good info there, but have partially planned differently now. I will also refer to it.

I have been following the thread with interest already.

We have now chosen spotlights for the stairwell (which is open to the living room), which are not placed on the steps themselves, but will be connected with additional accent spots. 1-watt LED bulbs will be installed there, which can be switched off from the hallway below and above. They can then be on all the time, especially during the darker seasons, which suits your situation.
In addition, at your place I would install a wall or ceiling outlet so that you can see spider webs when cleaning.

Are the 1W LEDs enough for normal use of the stairs or do you still turn on the regular stair lighting every time? Have you seen this anywhere?
I think two wall outlets are definitely sensible. They should probably also be switchable independently from the upper or lower hallway lighting.

Regarding motion detectors, I would consider: they can be practical, but you are first standing in the light if someone rings the doorbell in the dark. Or if you want to investigate noises, you also do not want to stand in the spotlight. Otherwise, it is certainly possible to have both: we want to use motion detectors outside, but also have a circuit for permanent light, and according to the electrician we will get that.

I find motion detectors great especially for rooms that are just passing through since they turn off the light again.
As a child I was called "coal thief" because I left the lights on everywhere.

Our general contractor (GC) also charges 39.50 per outlet. However, we have left this item open. During the site inspection with the electrician, we went through everything, and he gave us a cost estimate for the multiple lines. With him, we came to 26.50 per outlet, and everything else was cheaper too. For example, a data outlet costs only half as much as with the GC (60 instead of 120).
Our GC does not want anything to do with our own work anymore, standard outlets have been deducted by the electrician, and the invoice (surcharge) is paid to the electrician.

The 40€ or 80€ are, according to the GC, already what the electrician charges us directly.
Actually, prices should be somewhat cheaper in eastern parts of the country than with you.
I definitely see room for negotiation there.
Network outlets I found cheaper again, although many more cables have to be connected there.

Above the dining table, so nothing glares. Living room ceiling light, so that atmosphere comes up. Lamps and bulbs must be suitable, though. We also planned dimmers in the bathroom for the skylights. We now have that as well, and it is nice when bathing.
So dimmers everywhere the main light should sometimes also be mood lighting.

Sounds logical.

Hello Musketier,
Regarding 2)
When using flush-mounted IR sensors together with LED technology, you have to be careful not to get one of the usual "standard" sensors that only work with normal resistive loads like incandescent and halogen lamps.

Good to know.

It is no problem to have either no light at all or permanent light despite sensor technology. My 10 m high stairwell spanning 3 floors is sensor-controlled to light up for 5 minutes without pressing a button at the first step inside, which is also enough time for the longest walk if you dawdle. I have connected the sensors parallel to my three-way switch circuit so that you only have to use one of the three switches to get permanent light. However, you then have to remember to turn it off again. If blackout is arranged, there are "emergency stop switches" wired in series on each floor so that each floor is equal. A professional should be able to do this easily. I built it myself but had it tested and accepted by a company; that saved me well over €10,000 including LAN/ISDN/alarm system mainly due to expensive flush-mounted chasing.

4)
There are also double sockets that require only one installation box. Otherwise, you would have to mill another box above or below. The wiring is no problem because you only have to connect the wires to the next box. The conductor cross-section of the installed cable does not have to be changed; the second outlet can be loaded just as much as the first.

I would trust myself to add a second outlet and connect the cables. I have set and connected boxes before.
It probably doesn't go as fast as with the electrician. But if you make double sockets yourself out of 20 single sockets, you save €650 minus material costs.

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