Financing with KfW - Construction company struggles

Hi everyone!

The following situation – my wife and I want to build in Berlin.

The plot has been found and I already have the preliminary contract in hand.

At the same time, we are looking for a construction company to go through with it.

Since we don’t have 300k in our pocket, financing naturally comes into play.
Basically, we now have 2 options from the F-consulting that suit us –
one with and one without KFW.

For the loan application with KfW, for an Efficiency 70 house, in our case,
KfW wants the application form filled out and signed by the construction company.

So, and here’s the thing: the company we (actually) want to build with,
now said – no no, you won’t get anything without a contract.

The reasoning was, I quote:

“The subject of this application must be a specific project, consisting of a construction contract and a corresponding thermal protection certificate, taking into account the plot-specific conditions.”

So, all true to the motto first sign, negotiate later.

That made us very suspicious, especially since the F-consultant said
that usually reputable companies sign such an application without any ifs or buts,
when it’s a run-of-the-mill project.

And it IS a run-of-the-mill project, a house from a catalog. Above all, I studied civil engineering myself, so as for “plot-specific conditions”...
such nonsense.

My question to you, dear forum members – what experience have you had with such KfW applications and construction companies?
What do you think, is it still worth talking to the company?

So far, we have only had one conversation with the project manager with the ^ company, and one conversation with the F-consultant (whom we have now dropped). The house already appeals to us,
but since we want to change the layout on the ground floor (because of an otherwise unfavorably located entrance), we naturally wanted to talk to planners first and see a few examples of the changes.
And the project manager now comes with “first sign, then negotiate”...

I really don’t like that.

Thanks for your opinions!

L

Hello,

For the loan application with KfW, for an Efficiency 70 house, in our case, KfW wants this application form filled out and signed by the construction company... This made us very suspicious, especially since the F-consultant said that usually reputable companies sign such an application without any ifs or buts, if it's a standard project.

With all due respect, your F-consultant is not all there :confused: As a construction engineer, you should also know that a structural engineer has to confirm this form with his signature. He will hardly do that if the floor plans are not finalized, the location of the property etc. is not known to him, and his work is not paid.

What do you think, is it still worth talking to the company?

If you are sure that you really want to build with this provider, you should propose to conclude a planning contract for form 153. The costs should be around +/- € 500.00 and must be credited in a later contract for work.

...And the project leader now comes with "sign first, then negotiate"...

If this statement refers to form 153, it is his legitimate right. If it generally concerns the design of the floor plans, I would suggest that you have not yet found your partner in the building project.

Basically, I would advise you to wait with the KfW application until you are sure you have found the right provider for you ;)

Kind regards

Evening,

first of all, thanks for the feedback.

With all due respect, your F-consultant is not all there :confused:

Why is that, please?

As a civil engineer, you should also know that a structural engineer has to confirm this form with his signature. He will hardly do that if the floor plans are not negotiated, the location of the property, etc. are known to him, and his work is paid for.

Well, that's exactly the point. The P-manager (actually, he's not really one, but more of a salesperson), does not argue with "structural engineering etc.". Rather bluntly – first contract, then the rest. Because – the floor plan is known (we're not talking about the position of the drywall walls here; load-bearing walls stay where they are). The location and soil condition of the property are also known (the P-manager already has all the documents). + they are building a house 100 meters further, so soil characteristics are also known. + the house is, as the guy himself says, one of the most frequently built houses (at the company). So much for them not having structural engineering, energy certificates, etc.

If you are sure that you actually want to build with this provider, you should suggest concluding a planning contract for form 153. The costs should be in the range of +/- €500.00 and must be credited in a later construction contract.

Yeah, well, I could possibly live with such a protection fee maybe.... Even though the F-consultant just said – "with a reputable company, you shouldn't incur *any* costs beforehand, not before the contract is signed."

If this statement relates to form 153, it is his legitimate right.

Hm, this is not about right or wrong. Fortunately, we're not at that point. It's simply about me, as a customer, wanting to invest a ton of money, and basically being shoved the contract under my nose without any prior service & thorough issue clarification. Someone has to make the advance payment! And IMHO, that should be done by the one who ultimately earns the money from the other – the construction company.

If it's generally about the design of the floor plans, I would think that you have not yet found your partner in terms of the construction project.

Found – no, that’s true, I am/we are still searching. Floor plan – yes, we already know exactly how it should look like.

Greetings

L

Hello,

...especially because the F-advisor said that usually more reputable companies sign such an application without any ifs or buts when it comes to a standard project

Why on earth is that?

There is no standard project; even typical house types are adapted to the wishes of potential builders, so they - considered individually - are a new plan, to which no existing statics/WSV apply. A "reputable" financial broker knows that and would therefore not throw such a statement into the room, nor say it to a customer. In this respect, my statement and, admittedly, the repeated hint to reconsider the financial advisor ;)

Well, that’s exactly the point. The P-manager (or rather, he is not really one, but more of a salesman) doesn’t even argue with "statics etc." Quite bluntly – contract first, then the rest.

Whatever a "P-manager" is supposed to be – he pressures you with half-knowledge and you should – especially given your education – seriously consider showing the provider the door that a carpenter has prepared for such cases!

Because - the floor plan is known (we are not talking about the position of the drywall walls here; load-bearing walls remain where they are). Location and soil conditions of the plot are also known (the P-manager already has all documents). + they are building a house 100 meters further on, therefore the soil conditions are also known. + The house is, as the guy himself says, one of the most built (by the company) houses. So much for them having no statics, thermal proof, etc.

No, it is a misconception to assume that soil conditions within 100 meters straight line must be unchanged! I myself have experienced more than once that even in semi-detached houses different soil conditions occur. We do not build a single house without a soil survey – if the interested party still insists, we waive the contract and wish them success in finding a suitable provider!

As you describe the situation so far, the salesperson just wants to take you off the market, has no clue, and you as an engineer don’t doubt?

Yeah, well, I could possibly live with such a protection fee could... Even though right there the F-advisor said – "with a reputable company you should not incur *any* costs in advance, not before the contract is signed."

Question: Imagine you are on the "other side" and an interested party walks into your engineering office demanding proof from you that you know will cost you work and time and that you will certainly have to vouch personally for the correctness of the information – do you do that out of pure charity without compensation for your expenses or do you inform that interested party that for your work, logically, an invoice will follow?

Regarding the financial advisor, I already wrote, ask him which provider he considers "reputable" and please post it here; I could imagine that the cause of the "recommendation" allows further conclusions :(

Hmm, this is not about right or wrong. Thankfully, we’re not that far. It’s simply about that I as customer want to invest a pile of money, and the contract is shoved under my nose virtually without any advance service & detailed problem clarification. Somebody has to go into advance! And IMHO, that should be the one who ultimately earns the money from the other - the construction company.

And additionally, should he assign an external order free of charge (very few providers have a permanently employed structural engineer), although it is still unclear whether you will even sign a contract? Strange attitude...

Found - true, I/we are just searching. Floor plan – yes, I/we know exactly how it should look.

Then I understand even less why you already want a KfW certificate now when it’s not yet certain that you want to build with this provider at all? For this 153 form not only the floor plan must be known, also, for example, the building system, the technology used etc. are the basis of this calculation for the form.

Again: the way I see it, you should seriously reconsider the carpenter’s work mentioned above and look for truly reputable providers – including an independent financial broker – for your construction project; if necessary, then sign a planning contract for the form. Then your risk is manageable … although I also cannot comprehend your financial advisor from another perspective (or you are withholding from him that you have not yet made a final decision for a provider): What use is a completed 153 form to you if its calculations do not correspond in any way to the later single-family house to be built?

Not only banks, but partly also municipalities require this certificate and do not joke at all when the content does not correspond with reality :rolleyes:

Kind regards

Hello,

...There is no run-of-the-mill project; even standard house types are adapted to the wishes of potential builders, so they - considered on their own - represent a new plan to which no existing structural analysis/WSV applies.

That's right, every construction project is specific and individual, even if it is a so-called "standard project"! Because even the climate location and user behavior are variable!

... Well, that's exactly the point. The project manager (, or actually he is rather not one, but more like just a salesperson), does not argue with "structural analysis etc." at all. Quite bluntly - first contract, then the rest.

That really needs no further comment! ;)

...No, it is a misconception to assume that the soil condition must remain unchanged within 100 m horizontal distance!

That's right! I can provide a concrete example! A commercial building where single-family houses were built safely on the left and right. The client wanted to save the soil report! Consequence: a tuff hole, => excavation => huge additional effort afterwards!

Best regards.

ok, ok...

Thanks for the answers...


In the meantime, we have decided on a different developer - the conversation was noticeably more open, serious, and many times more informative from the very beginning.

We have now commissioned the soil investigation before purchasing the property, and it will be done in about 1-2 weeks. In the worst case, if the property is not purchased, we will lose just under 1K €.

Thanks again for the ideas!

Regards

L