Building without a ventilation system using hollow bricks?

  • Erstellt am 2012-10-17 20:26:36

kamnik

2012-10-25 17:33:32
  • #1
It's just my personal opinion and should not be overrated; everything secondary.

? I wonder why something like this is being sold as innovative?



Problem with a builder who let himself be talked into building/putting up these flat roofs. Water always stands in some kind of gutter. Why build something like this? Every old master builder would just shake their head – today you get awards for architectures that were once called barns, haylofts.

Or why nail vertical fence slats to the house wall when the impregnation is proven to deteriorate after 6 years? Why invest > 150,000 euros in technical heating systems, including ventilation systems, etc., which are completely worthless after 30 years? And so on, and so forth.

The old master builders were no fools either and most houses still hold up today. In my eyes, some innovations are rather a step backwards than progress.

OT: what for a ventilation system in brick construction? According to my argumentation = unnecessary.

Pro argumentation?
 

Shism

2012-10-26 11:21:41
  • #2


That was the topic before you started this pub talk ^^



Please tell me more... how exactly does the brick compensate the heat? Are you sure that bricks do not absorb heat?
Is insulation bad for protection against summer heat?



Excuse me? ^^



What happens to my indoor humidity if I open the windows and let in the cold winter air? Does it then go up? yes?
And humidifiers instead of ventilating in insulated new buildings? Because apparently there is too little humidity there?
In your opinion, does a ventilation system have the task of humidifying the indoor air?



Could you perhaps also share your thoughts on the pension system? And on the euro? That would certainly be interesting weekend reading

Conclusion: one can only hope that no one listens to your advice here...
I myself am not a fan of polystyrene insulation either... but what you are talking about here is partly dangerous nonsense because you obviously have no idea about the subject... your experiences with your house from ’78 cannot be transferred to a modern new building!

With a ventilation system and a well-insulated house, comfort also plays a certain role... You don’t have to sneak to the bathroom freezing in winter or shiver in the morning while firing up the Swedish stove... and by the time the rooms come up to temperature after 30 minutes, I’m already slowly leaving the house again...
Why do you actually always go to Thailand during the winter? Is it perhaps getting uncomfortable for you in your cold, drafty building? ^^



In a new, almost airtight house, moisture is constantly generated... when showering, cooking, through plants, through the occupants, through the building fabric etc...
The humidity continuously rises....
You have to know that warm air can hold more moisture than cold air... If this warm air now comes into contact with cooler building elements and thus cools down, moisture can condense. That’s why, for example, windows fog up from the inside, because these were often the coldest surface in an old house...
If this now happens in/on a wall, it is a perfect breeding ground for mold...

So the problem is not too little humidity, but too much! That’s why you have to ventilate shock-wise, so that cold, dry air from outside gets in and the humidity goes down again...

Since you can/do not want to ventilate shock-wise so often and so long, it makes sense to provide a ventilation system to ensure that this moist air leaves the house and fresh air comes in...

In your old building, you have the problem that it is ventilated almost permanently (because it is not airtight) and you thus get a very dry indoor air... your beloved Swedish stove contributes its part as well... that’s why you then need the humidifier...
 

Bauexperte

2012-10-26 12:23:12
  • #3
Hello,


If you put your personal opinion up for discussion, you shouldn’t try to present it as fact. What you are offering here is at best half-baked – and therefore dangerous nonsense for inexperienced building amateurs.


This is a design tailored to a specific life situation; you copied the views from the front page of my homepage in the single-family house section. These views are an example of a cube.


Many of your "old" masters have produced this dangerous crap. By the way, just like their "estimates" of the heating energy demand of a single-family house. I know enough of them and "owe" them quite a bit of additional and unnecessary work. Recently, one of your old "masters" again decided on short notice to install a 3 kW larger heat generator – better safe than sorry. Apart from the fact that it is completely unnecessary – the heating load calculation confirms the sold heat generator – it would have cost my clients EUR 5-6 thousand more. So much for the topic of "old masters."

Here is a commentary on the flat roof guideline for interested building amateurs:

"Since October 2008, the new flat roof guideline has been introduced as binding and has
undergone many significant changes compared to the old September 2003 version, e.g.,
regarding its scope, the rules for waterproofing, the materials, etc.
It has aligned its essential rules with DIN 18531 for unoccupied
roofs.

The so-called basic rules, which serve as the basis for the entire
roofing trade rule set and thus for all planning and
execution principles defined by the subordinate rule sets, have remained unchanged.
These include, for example, all definitions such as waterproofing, connections and
terminations, roof pitch, built-in parts, substructure, etc. The modal auxiliary verbs and
their meanings, which repeatedly appear in the texts of the technical rules, are also
covered in the basic rules.

The technical rules, on the other hand, which were revised in the new flat roof guideline,
contain procedures for planning and execution that have proven theoretically correct and
workmanlike feasible in their respective specialist areas.

If we start with the scope of the technical rule, we find that in addition to the already existing
responsibility of the technical rule for unoccupied areas, responsibility for
occupied areas has been extended, namely by the note that the technical rule also applies
to waterproofing against non-pressing water. However, on the condition that
DIN 18195 is also observed here, which is expressed under section 3 Rules for waterproofing
of occupied roofs and areas.."


If the respective builder uses "Douglas fir" instead of spruce and maintains his facade, this statement is irrelevant. But – and here we are back to you – Douglas fir is of course more expensive

"Douglas fir (Pseudotsuga menziesii) can undoubtedly be considered by far the most important
naturalized wood species in Germany and Central Europe. A sister species of Douglas fir from the genus Pseudotsuga existed in our region until the ice ages.
The Douglas fir of the genus survived the ice age due to the north-south orientation
of the great mountain ranges in North America.
Due to its good technological-mechanical properties and high natural
durability on one hand, and its decorative, larch-like appearance on the other,
Douglas fir can equally fulfill load-bearing and decorative functions.
Douglas fir has a long service life outdoors with additional protection through a suitable coating,
since it has good natural durability. Douglas fir is only slightly durable in contact with soil or under prolonged high moisture conditions,
so pressure impregnation is necessary."


There is a petitions committee – also in Brussels. Ask your questions there!


Not all, that's true – but I still preferred the very old church or cathedral builders to the "old masters or master builders" you generally praise.

Kind regards
 

o.s.

2012-10-27 13:27:37
  • #4
Hello Fabian,
I’m putting the popcorn away and skipping the entertaining but somewhat misleading discussion by kamnik. I’m not an expert, but next year I’m starting a house construction project with a general contractor and have asked myself similar questions.Small tip: In addition to perforated bricks filled with perlite, the same manufacturers (Schlagmann, Wienerberger & Co., brand name Poroton) also offer bricks filled with mineral wool, which have a U-value of 0.08 and are significantly cheaper.
With the currently standard wall thickness of 36.5 cm and a U-value of 0.07 or 0.08 you will probably not quite make it. They will likely recommend at least a wall thickness of 42.5 or 49 cm. For bricks, the material price is almost proportional to wall thickness, so this will cost you several thousand euros more. Also, the planner will have to enlarge the base plate and the roof (roof structure, roof tiles, etc.) according to the increase in external dimensions, which will usually be charged accordingly. A thicker wall (36.5 vs. 49 cm) leads to an increase of the base plate by 5 square meters for a 10x10 meter house. Assume that the costs for the 5 square meters correspond approximately to 5 square meters of additional living space per floor = 10 square meters. How much do 10 more square meters cost with your house planner/general contractor?

My concern: KfW 40 is a major financial challenge for a brick-on-brick house. The credit you get from the KfW bank for the KfW 40 standard will never offset your additional investment, even if you consider the energy costs saved and energy price increases. So why KfW 40?

With the KFW 153 program you can get a maximum of 50,000 at low interest. Also with second-ranking mortgage, so you have more buffer with your equity. But: Everything beyond the KfW 70 standard improves your financial situation only slightly.

Yes. Every house currently built must comply with legal requirements and be airtight (blower door test). This means you will probably ventilate through the windows much more than in your current dwelling. Nobody can forbid you from doing that.
 

karliseppel

2012-10-27 13:55:18
  • #5


Full agreement
 

kamnik

2012-10-28 12:09:55
  • #6


Stand in a prefab house in summer and then in a brick house at 40 degrees Celsius outside temperature in summer. In the prefab house, the heat builds up, which must be transported outside by an overpriced air conditioner. In the brick house, I do not have this problem at all because the brick cools sufficiently. Therefore, an air conditioner is not necessary at all. For the few weeks in summer, it's just overkill (investment vs. cost/benefit comparison). That is why I would never build a prefab house or even a low-energy house in southern Europe; why install an overpriced air conditioner, which aa) is scrap after 20 years, bb) constantly has to be maintained (filters), cc) still consumes electricity. All marketing. In Sweden, for example, the situation is different. There, I would have a prefab house built; because it is cold to very cold, especially in winter. In summer, max about 20 degrees Celsius. There, an air conditioner does not pay off; not even a prefab house, because there are already 140 m2 houses in red starting from 30,000 euros.



That is the common misconception. You open the windows in winter because your throat itches and you are made to believe that the oxygen must be reduced. That's exactly where the problem lies. The problem is that the heating consumes the humidity in the room. Then comes the itching/discomfort in the throat, then you throw the windows wide open. By placing small humidifiers, I get enough moisture in the room and don't have to constantly open the windows—because the oxygen content is often sufficient. But it also depends on how you heat. If the stove/Bullerjan burns oxygen in the volume, I have to supply more; this works with a very small control, a fresh air duct + fan, without having to open the windows.

The total insulation causes rather mold formation in the corners, like a construction year '80 roller shutter-window combination element, where it drafts in the mounting cage. Unfortunately negligible when you relate the air conditioner + maintenance costs + energy costs to the additional heating consumption again. That means 1 ton more consumption per year of hardwood briquettes over 20 years of air conditioning is still cheaper. You can calculate that mentally. A suggestion intended to convince the builder: Yes, invest - then you can save. But if you relate the effort to the savings, you quickly realize you have burned a lot of money. And here comes the problem: after 20-25 years the entire system is outdated and the game starts over.

That is why winemakers in the Trieste area are switching back to clay pots. Why only? Already explained!



Yes, sure. Invest your money in gold, diamonds, commodity papers. Split everything. I wouldn't even take out life insurance. Deposit everything in banks temporarily. Deposit the other part in Swiss banks; rent safe deposit boxes; no investments, likewise no taxation/ tax offices can't check anything. Where there are no capital gains, there are no tax claims. Germany will become uninteresting anyway. Markets are shifting. You can forget about statutory pensions in 30 to 40 years (projections). Sure, there will always be a unified pension, but then only triple-digit for everyone? Those who think differently should invest diligently, consume, spend money, build overpriced houses? We don't live in Stalinism.



Well, my mentor taught me the ABC of economics once. That is no longer taught in schools today and that is the beginning of megalomania and decadence. Whoever acts normal today is a bore. If you recklessly throw your money out the balcony, you are the king. (See banking crisis)



I transfer a lot from building technology from 1980 to today. I have some expert videos that prove exactly that this Styrofoam insulation madness (subsidized + subsidized also on disposal in 20-25 years) + critique is justified. Why have the prices risen many times over the last few years? (see Sto, etc.)

Comfort is a thing. If you have to walk around in a t-shirt indoors all winter because it's simply trendy, you have to use more energy than if you wear a ticks breeding smock with deer horn buttons because then 20 degrees Celsius thermostat setting suffices. And one more thing. Every reasonable controller from 2012 can be timed. You don't have to creep shivering through the hallway, that also works with automatic setback. And if planners would design smaller rooms as standard and not living-kitchen combos where the couch smells after a garlic session... then you can quickly compensate a delta theta of 8 degrees Celsius with a stove/Bullerjan/Swede. But people are getting softer? Just camp outside in winter, that hardens you + wash your crotch off with cold seawater + normal soap in the morning?



When I even read almost airtight house, alarm bells ring for me... Since the 70s there have been wall fans, even exhaust devices for cooking areas as standard? To counteract condensation, the blinds are closed. So generally (electrified, by pushbutton, by remote control from the server).

The bigger problem is the total insulation. The local expert reports miserable mold infestations... not in old existing installations... no, mainly in renovated systems that have been just totally insulated with super windows + ultra insulation. No air can get in anymore, people want to save and boom, mold inside the house.



You also need a humidifier in a 300-year-old former farmhouse with central heating + local room thermostats. You can't regulate a wet towel on the radiator, but you can regulate a humidifier.

According to my argumentation, the problem is rather the extra insulation that hermetically seals the entire living space even more; see facade construction craze.

If you want air conditioning, then build 25 cm higher right away, plan for pipes and revisions in concrete ceilings (Styrofoam balls inside when the concrete is poured at 12; afterwards with fire protection). Otherwise, you hang around for hours again at a 30 x 30 hole. That's how it is.

Insight: A low-energy house only pays off for the planner because he can cash in on it.

Why do people build house sizes of 10 x 7.6, or simply reduce roof overhangs because it looks so great or more light (energy) comes in? The reason (according to a live interview at the trade fair, but only unofficial) is now: "... basically, they just want to save material, because one cubic meter less, one square meter less and they have a thousand euros more in their pocket - that's the real background.

Building is not a science. You have to know how to build. The Arabs cut the heads off builders if the house was no good. So much for warranty!
 

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