Schokoriegel
2024-06-18 12:30:04
- #1
Hello,
I am still new to the forum and have been reading through all the topics here for a few days. A true treasure trove of knowledge and experience, great stuff!
We are still in the early stages of our house-building project. Before I make obvious mistakes early on, my idea is to start asking questions here early and introduce the topic. Better to stumble quickly than fail late.
## Specifically, this has happened so far:
- We live in a 101 sqm (net living area inside) or 108 sqm (including terrace) apartment, with a small basement (approx. 12 sqm), underground parking space, outdoor parking space, shared bicycle room (where our 3 bikes are stored), small garden (approx. 28 sqm), very efficiently laid out with 5 rooms --> from this, we derive a realistic "what we need" requirement since we find this space just right for us.
- We visited the prefab house exhibition in Fellbach (near Stuttgart) and looked at a few houses and spoke with advisors there (Okal, Weberhaus, Bittermann, and Weiss).
- We visited the new development area Steinriegel in Wendlingen and took a closer look at 3 plots of land for sale there. All 3 plots would be acceptable for us with various pros and cons.
- Today we have an initial meeting with another prefab house manufacturer who has built a house in the area (hoping that he can better assess the local conditions without more details than other manufacturers, since he built a house 5 plots away - forum research makes me fear we might be expecting too much)
- In a few days, we have an initial meeting with our house bank to get a first indication about the budget
- We are educating ourselves on the topic
- We are starting this thread
## Plots
The 2 prioritized plots:
A: Single-family house, flat roof 0-5°, 345 sqm, €850/sqm, €294k, 3% broker fee, max building height 6.5m, floor area ratio 0.4 -> buildable area 138 sqm, relatively flat, number of full stories = 1, the text section also contains this sentence: "According to § 19 (4) 2 in conjunction with § 19 (4) 3 of the Land Use Ordinance, the floor area ratio specified in the graphic part of the development plan may be exceeded by floor areas of facilities according to § 19 (4) 1 Nos. 1, 2 and 3 of the Land Use Ordinance up to a value of 0.6 [...] "
B: Terraced house, gable roof 30-45°, 268 sqm, €850/sqm, €228k, 3% broker fee, max ridge height 4.50 m, max facade height 9.00 m, floor area ratio 0.45 -> buildable area 120 sqm, "steep" with estimated 12.3% slope (read from the height profiles in the site plan), number of full stories = 1, the text section has the same sentence as above but with 0.7 as the value.
With our layman’s knowledge, we estimated that on both plots the requirement for area (110 sqm + basement + garage, or 150 sqm without basement + garage) should be achievable within the building limits (each 1 full story plus 1 66% upper floor).
## Budget
The budget situation is still a bit unclear for us, we are working on it (primary step: through the bank meeting this week). Situation:
- The apartment is not paid off and there are 3 loans running on it arranged via the house bank (a "never do this!" kind of financing with 2 regular annuity loans and 1 home savings contract, which is paid into for 10 years and then serves as repayment). From today's perspective, all terms are great but it's not paid off yet. Since everything goes through the house bank, they are also the sensible first contact for a rough realistic framework.
- Primarily the equity (as the idea goes) is either
a) selling the apartment *after moving into the new house, i.e. in 2-3 years* and taking over the loans on the new house and the remaining money from the sale as equity
b) selling the apartment *after moving into the new house, i.e. in 2-3 years* and paying penalties to the bank to get out of the loans, and the remaining money is the equity
As a first estimate, we said we see €750,000 total costs as feasible. €800,000 to €850,000 only if everything goes positively at the bank. Beyond that, not conceivable. As said, we want to look at this from the bank’s perspective and cross-check.
## Process flow
As far as I understand, we would have to carry out this sequence to realize the project:
1) plan a specific house as much as possible without owning a plot
2) check financing with the bank with vague numbers
3) buy the specific plot financed through the bank
4) plan the specific house better since we can now do soil surveys etc.
5) check financing again with the bank
6) commission the specific house via prefab house manufacturer (general contractor – right?) financed through the bank
7) have the house completed
8) sell the apartment and thus only then "secure" the equity
## Additional costs
Weberhaus has mentioned the following figures as a rough first indication for plot A, i.e. the single-family house with relatively flat plot:
- €3000 per sqm (150 sqm: €450,000 or 110 sqm: €330,000)
Additionally:
- Garage €40,000
- Surveyor €2,500
- Sewer connection €5,000
- Electricity €3,000
- Water €2,500
- Media connections €2,500
- Road closure €2,500
- Construction water/electricity €1,500
- Coordinating architect €16,000
- Building application €500
- Soil survey €2,500
- 7% notary/tax on land (€21,000 or €16,000)
- Civil engineering/earthworks €50,000
- Outdoor facilities €30,000
Sum of additional costs for plot A:
- €181,000
Variant 150 sqm without basement on plot A would be:
€450,000 (house) + €181,000 (additional costs) + €294,000 (plot)
= €925,000 for all.
## Requirements
- We currently think that we either
a) net living area (by this we mean excluding heating, washing machine, dryer, terrace, garage, walls) 110 sqm WITH basement or
b) net living area 150 sqm WITHOUT basement
are needed.
- additionally garage for 1 car and 3 bicycles (on the side)
- 5 rooms
## Timeline
We were shocked not only by the prices but also by the estimated duration:
- Broker: 6-9 months building permit here in the city
- Weberhaus: 18 months from building permit
- Okal: 12 months from building permit
- Bittermann: 2 years from building permit
## Next steps
Our goal for the end of the week is:
- a robust estimate for the budget
- a robust estimate for the cost of a prefab house on both plots
- a robust estimate of our requirements
- decision: kill the project or continue.
I find these questions difficult since there is no reliable gut feeling, so we depend on numbers. Getting these numbers is harder than expected :-)
##
Questions for you:
- When is the right time to commission a freelance architect (or "planner" as it is often called here in the forum – what exactly is that?) to plan a house with us? What does that roughly cost in the Stuttgart area? How do I find a "good" one?
- What can and must we still do to obtain a realistic cost estimate before going to the bank?
- Is the sequence above correct? Where are the major conceptual errors?
- What else can and should we do in the current situation, what is the logical next step? (Goal: continue or kill the project)
- Which amounts in the additional costs above are realistic, which are much too high or too low? What is missing?
- Do such lump sum estimates always need "10% extra because there is always something unforeseen" on top?
- Which cost items change massively when choosing plot B with a 12% slope and are there any rough estimates as a first indication? For example, "earthworks factor 2" or something like that?
- Where do you see the biggest killer concerns and risks immediately? In which steps? Personal gut feeling: 1) the fact that the entire financing is based on speculation that when the apartment is sold in ~2.5 years, xyz money will come in, otherwise, we have a financing gap. 2) the fact that one buys a plot and then later the building project fails because the specifically planned house is simply much more expensive than the roughly planned one (financing gap).
##
At total costs of €925,000, we will not pursue the project further. Even without interest rate talks and unclear remaining money from the apartment sale discussions, that exceeds what we would pay for something this "small". That would be madness from our perspective. Where madness turns into "yes, we do it," we don’t know yet. We are in the initial discovery phase. You can tell (since I have little knowledge). As a lower pain threshold for "how much space we need," the description of our current living situation above serves. We do not want to worsen that. Because there are stairs in the house vs. apartment, we have determined 110 sqm instead of 101 sqm net indoor living space as a minimum for us (provided there is a basement + garage).
Thanks for any comments in advance – feel free to critically dissect and express a clear opinion if there are bigger mistakes here. That’s why I am here.
I am still new to the forum and have been reading through all the topics here for a few days. A true treasure trove of knowledge and experience, great stuff!
We are still in the early stages of our house-building project. Before I make obvious mistakes early on, my idea is to start asking questions here early and introduce the topic. Better to stumble quickly than fail late.
## Specifically, this has happened so far:
- We live in a 101 sqm (net living area inside) or 108 sqm (including terrace) apartment, with a small basement (approx. 12 sqm), underground parking space, outdoor parking space, shared bicycle room (where our 3 bikes are stored), small garden (approx. 28 sqm), very efficiently laid out with 5 rooms --> from this, we derive a realistic "what we need" requirement since we find this space just right for us.
- We visited the prefab house exhibition in Fellbach (near Stuttgart) and looked at a few houses and spoke with advisors there (Okal, Weberhaus, Bittermann, and Weiss).
- We visited the new development area Steinriegel in Wendlingen and took a closer look at 3 plots of land for sale there. All 3 plots would be acceptable for us with various pros and cons.
- Today we have an initial meeting with another prefab house manufacturer who has built a house in the area (hoping that he can better assess the local conditions without more details than other manufacturers, since he built a house 5 plots away - forum research makes me fear we might be expecting too much)
- In a few days, we have an initial meeting with our house bank to get a first indication about the budget
- We are educating ourselves on the topic
- We are starting this thread
## Plots
The 2 prioritized plots:
A: Single-family house, flat roof 0-5°, 345 sqm, €850/sqm, €294k, 3% broker fee, max building height 6.5m, floor area ratio 0.4 -> buildable area 138 sqm, relatively flat, number of full stories = 1, the text section also contains this sentence: "According to § 19 (4) 2 in conjunction with § 19 (4) 3 of the Land Use Ordinance, the floor area ratio specified in the graphic part of the development plan may be exceeded by floor areas of facilities according to § 19 (4) 1 Nos. 1, 2 and 3 of the Land Use Ordinance up to a value of 0.6 [...] "
B: Terraced house, gable roof 30-45°, 268 sqm, €850/sqm, €228k, 3% broker fee, max ridge height 4.50 m, max facade height 9.00 m, floor area ratio 0.45 -> buildable area 120 sqm, "steep" with estimated 12.3% slope (read from the height profiles in the site plan), number of full stories = 1, the text section has the same sentence as above but with 0.7 as the value.
With our layman’s knowledge, we estimated that on both plots the requirement for area (110 sqm + basement + garage, or 150 sqm without basement + garage) should be achievable within the building limits (each 1 full story plus 1 66% upper floor).
## Budget
The budget situation is still a bit unclear for us, we are working on it (primary step: through the bank meeting this week). Situation:
- The apartment is not paid off and there are 3 loans running on it arranged via the house bank (a "never do this!" kind of financing with 2 regular annuity loans and 1 home savings contract, which is paid into for 10 years and then serves as repayment). From today's perspective, all terms are great but it's not paid off yet. Since everything goes through the house bank, they are also the sensible first contact for a rough realistic framework.
- Primarily the equity (as the idea goes) is either
a) selling the apartment *after moving into the new house, i.e. in 2-3 years* and taking over the loans on the new house and the remaining money from the sale as equity
b) selling the apartment *after moving into the new house, i.e. in 2-3 years* and paying penalties to the bank to get out of the loans, and the remaining money is the equity
As a first estimate, we said we see €750,000 total costs as feasible. €800,000 to €850,000 only if everything goes positively at the bank. Beyond that, not conceivable. As said, we want to look at this from the bank’s perspective and cross-check.
## Process flow
As far as I understand, we would have to carry out this sequence to realize the project:
1) plan a specific house as much as possible without owning a plot
2) check financing with the bank with vague numbers
3) buy the specific plot financed through the bank
4) plan the specific house better since we can now do soil surveys etc.
5) check financing again with the bank
6) commission the specific house via prefab house manufacturer (general contractor – right?) financed through the bank
7) have the house completed
8) sell the apartment and thus only then "secure" the equity
## Additional costs
Weberhaus has mentioned the following figures as a rough first indication for plot A, i.e. the single-family house with relatively flat plot:
- €3000 per sqm (150 sqm: €450,000 or 110 sqm: €330,000)
Additionally:
- Garage €40,000
- Surveyor €2,500
- Sewer connection €5,000
- Electricity €3,000
- Water €2,500
- Media connections €2,500
- Road closure €2,500
- Construction water/electricity €1,500
- Coordinating architect €16,000
- Building application €500
- Soil survey €2,500
- 7% notary/tax on land (€21,000 or €16,000)
- Civil engineering/earthworks €50,000
- Outdoor facilities €30,000
Sum of additional costs for plot A:
- €181,000
Variant 150 sqm without basement on plot A would be:
€450,000 (house) + €181,000 (additional costs) + €294,000 (plot)
= €925,000 for all.
## Requirements
- We currently think that we either
a) net living area (by this we mean excluding heating, washing machine, dryer, terrace, garage, walls) 110 sqm WITH basement or
b) net living area 150 sqm WITHOUT basement
are needed.
- additionally garage for 1 car and 3 bicycles (on the side)
- 5 rooms
## Timeline
We were shocked not only by the prices but also by the estimated duration:
- Broker: 6-9 months building permit here in the city
- Weberhaus: 18 months from building permit
- Okal: 12 months from building permit
- Bittermann: 2 years from building permit
## Next steps
Our goal for the end of the week is:
- a robust estimate for the budget
- a robust estimate for the cost of a prefab house on both plots
- a robust estimate of our requirements
- decision: kill the project or continue.
I find these questions difficult since there is no reliable gut feeling, so we depend on numbers. Getting these numbers is harder than expected :-)
##
Questions for you:
- When is the right time to commission a freelance architect (or "planner" as it is often called here in the forum – what exactly is that?) to plan a house with us? What does that roughly cost in the Stuttgart area? How do I find a "good" one?
- What can and must we still do to obtain a realistic cost estimate before going to the bank?
- Is the sequence above correct? Where are the major conceptual errors?
- What else can and should we do in the current situation, what is the logical next step? (Goal: continue or kill the project)
- Which amounts in the additional costs above are realistic, which are much too high or too low? What is missing?
- Do such lump sum estimates always need "10% extra because there is always something unforeseen" on top?
- Which cost items change massively when choosing plot B with a 12% slope and are there any rough estimates as a first indication? For example, "earthworks factor 2" or something like that?
- Where do you see the biggest killer concerns and risks immediately? In which steps? Personal gut feeling: 1) the fact that the entire financing is based on speculation that when the apartment is sold in ~2.5 years, xyz money will come in, otherwise, we have a financing gap. 2) the fact that one buys a plot and then later the building project fails because the specifically planned house is simply much more expensive than the roughly planned one (financing gap).
##
At total costs of €925,000, we will not pursue the project further. Even without interest rate talks and unclear remaining money from the apartment sale discussions, that exceeds what we would pay for something this "small". That would be madness from our perspective. Where madness turns into "yes, we do it," we don’t know yet. We are in the initial discovery phase. You can tell (since I have little knowledge). As a lower pain threshold for "how much space we need," the description of our current living situation above serves. We do not want to worsen that. Because there are stairs in the house vs. apartment, we have determined 110 sqm instead of 101 sqm net indoor living space as a minimum for us (provided there is a basement + garage).
Thanks for any comments in advance – feel free to critically dissect and express a clear opinion if there are bigger mistakes here. That’s why I am here.