Solid wood (MHM) or stud - concrete offers, tips

  • Erstellt am 2020-01-03 20:40:23

flowschi

2020-01-03 20:40:23
  • #1
Hello,

Happy New Year!
And my first post here.
We have been struggling for a while with the decision between the two remaining construction companies. To come to a decision, I would like to gather some opinions.

From the beginning, only the timber construction method was an option for us, with ecological and healthy building being important. We obtained offers from 6 companies and have now reduced them to two. What is offered is a shell house: same floor plan, wooden windows, planning for controlled residential ventilation and underfloor heating. Heating, sanitary, and electrical work are not considered at this point – these will be assigned separately or done by ourselves.

Here is a brief summary of our options:

Offer A - Massive Wood Wall (MHM)
- Exterior walls: 100 mm wood fiber + 205 mm massive wood wall
- Interior walls: 115 or 160 mm massive wood wall
- Sheathing then done with gypsum plasterboards
Advantages:
- Ecological, no chemical treatment of the MHM
- Good summer thermal protection
- The company seems a bit more reliable and professional than Offer B. Offer B would not still be in the running if we had doubts here.
Disadvantages:
- About 8-10% more expensive than Offer B
- Not KFW40 as standard, since the exterior wall has a U-value of 0.22. Exact calculation only after order placement, with additional costs KFW40 possibly feasible (controlled residential ventilation and photovoltaics are planned). However, I am skeptical about this U-value since I have studied it in more detail ("effective U-value", phase shift…).
My main concern is the funding: Our financier could not tell us yet whether the KFW subsidy is worthwhile for us without a concrete calculation.
- Especially in the electrical trade (DIY): a precise, prior planning is necessary here. Later deviations during installation mean more effort to get them into the walls.

Regarding the massive, foil-free, and chemical-free walls (as far as I can judge, possibly excluding the wood fiber board outside), this is our favorite. As for the winter insulation properties, I am not quite clear about it. The simple U-value initially represents the wall rather badly, but various studies conclude that reality is different and the actual energy costs are significantly below the calculated ones.

Offer B - Timber Frame Construction
- Exterior wall: 60 mm wood fiber board, 60/260 KVH studs with Isocell, 15 mm OSB board, 12.5 mm gypsum fiberboard
- Interior walls: 12.5 mm Fermacell, 120 mm KVH Duo or 160 mm, 12.5 mm Fermacell. Insulation done in DIY with jute.
Advantages:
- Very ecological, no foil/vapor barrier, no polystyrene insulation
- U-value 0.14. KFW40 "as standard," with controlled residential ventilation and photovoltaics + storage also KFW40 plus.
- Continuous cable duct (no separate installation layer), DIY "electrical" probably somewhat more flexible than with massive wood
- About 8-10% cheaper, without considering possible KFW subsidy
Disadvantages:
- Insulation materials jute and cellulose: Not necessarily as ecological and healthy as often marketed. Borate salts, polyethylene terephthalate, ...
- Walls for hanging objects naturally not quite as easy to use as with massive wood

---

We have already discussed this among acquaintances and have received very different opinions, such as:
1) MHM: Poor U-value, not even KFW40, and more expensive? No way!
2) MHM: Only 10% more expensive? That healthy and ecological building method is definitely worth that to me!

My opinion is somehow in between: If prices were equal, I would choose MHM and also forgo KFW40. For our financing, these 10% are not insignificant, but somehow feasible.

Now I look forward to your assessment and also subjective opinions.
Is there anything missing in my information that interests you?

Thank you very much!
 

haydee

2020-01-03 20:57:52
  • #2
As long as the solid wood wall is not exposed or covered with drywall, it is easy to install additional cables and sockets.

Summer heat protection that insulates better also lets less heat pass through the wall. However, the thermal protection depends more on the effectiveness of the shading.

If you prefer the solid wood but it is just too expensive, consider using interior walls as wood studs. Possibly as own work. Wood studs installed by the general contractor instead of solid wood would have saved us a little over 10,000, plus own work.
 

boxandroof

2020-01-03 21:29:27
  • #3
Take what appeals to you more and what you can afford. The €100 difference in heating costs, KfW, and U-values will not matter to you later. With well-planned heating and technology, you save more than with the better wall.

Thermal insulation: Well-shaded windows and more mass in the house through solid wood help here. The phase shift is overrated. Shade the roof with as much photovoltaic as possible.
 

flowschi

2020-01-05 11:24:10
  • #4
Thank you for your answers!

I still have some questions regarding the Energy Saving Ordinance/KFW calculation - here I might be making too many and unnecessary considerations. Since we want to build with own contributions and the awarding of individual trades, it is not quite clear to me how the proofs/applications for possible KFW and BAFA subsidies must be organized here.
Could/should we handle all of this ourselves?


    [*]My understanding of the process: Our general contractor calculates the primary energy demand based on our plans. Including the basement, planned heating, ...
    From this results the energy certificate and also the KFW standard. Here we can decide whether we want to optimize further.
    Is that correct?
    [*]The basement is to be built as own work on the basis of the general contractor’s planning. Since it is own work: How is it proven in this case that it was actually built according to plan? Can the general contractor, who is not yet building the basement, be the required expert in case of appropriate agreements/construction supervision?
    [*]Same principle for the brine heat pump: If the collectors are installed as own work and the responsibility of the heating engineer begins at the distributor: The documents for KFW/BAFA subsidies are issued to me by the heating engineer, and I can submit them?
    [*]Are there defined average U-values of the building envelope for the different KFW standards that must not be exceeded? Or is the U-value initially only a factor in the overall calculation?
    [*]A basement that is not used as living space and therefore is not insulated accordingly (except for the basement ceiling) and is separated from the apartment by a door: Does this negatively affect the Energy Saving Ordinance calculation? Or is then only the basement ceiling taken into account for the calculation?
    [*]Is a brine-water heat pump more advantageous for the Energy Saving Ordinance calculation than an air-water heat pump? Can this be expressed in figures in general?

Thank you very much!
 

Heinziii

2020-01-07 22:27:05
  • #5

Hello, what price range are you looking at for your two offers?
Thanks
 

flowschi

2020-01-07 22:39:32
  • #6


In the mentioned expansion variants for ~153/155 sqm (MHM has 305 mm exterior wall, stud 355 mm):

Stud: 195k including material delivery / drywall interior finishing
MHM: 210k without material / drywall interior finishing

Here and there there are still a few minor differences, so on the last thousand they are completely comparable.
 

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